Airline Mogul Forum

when is Private worlds?

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yourefired

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Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 02:56:07 am
First, if it's a private world, that means I can impose any rules I want above and beyond the airline mogul rules, just like private, restricted membership alliances impose rules above and beyond the rules already set forth in AM, and just like any private organization can impose rules above and beyond the law to its members. Secondly, joining a private world is not a right. It's a privilege. Privileges can be revoked at the world creator's discretion. Not only that if you entered my private world illegitimately, or are using means that are illegitimate under the rules set forth in my world, I have the right to expel you and I SHOULD expel you, with or without notice. However, in the interest of fairness I plan to give notice before expulsion and give you a choice to either comply with the rules or face expulsion.

Joining a public world is a right for anyone who has an airline mogul account and has the requisite tokens to join; joining a private world, however, is not. Private worlds are exclusionary by nature. World creators, by nature of the fact that their world is private, and as long as they have made reasonable precautions that their world is private and any uninvited users will be expelled/banned, should have the right to control the membership of their private world. They also have the right to set forth any restrictions they see fit above and beyond what is legal in AM, just like anything else that is private has the right to do so, no matter how arbitrary, capricious, or unreasonable. What is legal in a public world doesn't necessarily have to be legal in a private world. If you suspect abuse of discretion, investigate.

It's like university; we have to choose to admit you, and if you don't follow the rules, we will expel you.

Yes, I understand that the backlash may be directed towards the membership officers, but people need to understand that they have no god-given right to enter a private world without an invitation. If you want a god-given right, then join a public world.

Quote
First, it's legal; and second, you could too easily boot anyone for any reason (i.e., player is at the same base at your's and you don't want any competition).


In a public world, it's legal. In a private world, created by me, it's illegal if I say so. Secondly, by the nature of the fact that I have created a private world, I have the RIGHT to throw people out or deny people entry for any reason, in good or bad faith, or no reason at all. However in the interest of fairness, my rules and all its amendments will be clearly spelled out and I will give notice if there are any violations before I expel. The purpose of creating a private game is to exclude anyone we don't like from playing. Having the right to expel someone is the only way we can exclude people we don't like from playing with us.

And yes, absolutely, if you created a private world, you would have the right to expel people or deny them entry or reentry for any reason, in good or bad faith, or no reason at all.

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dktc

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Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 03:37:51 am
You know....

1. you are not amongst the group that is running this game
2. it is not a "right" to join a public world, it is a priviledge
3. there will be a password protected function for private world for the hosts to limit access
4. if we allow host to kick people without explanation / reason, flame wars will occur; if we suspress the flame wars, we would be flamed
5. you are not the only one in this game; other people will expel players without notice / explanation / clear rules

All I am saying here is there will be potential issues if we allow hosts to kick players (especially seeing how childish some players are here :roll: ). I am not saying hosts should not be able to ban players from the private worlds they create, but rather I am saying that there should be some mechanism in place to prevent abuses of authority.
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yourefired

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Reply #17 on: April 22, 2008, 04:20:07 am
Well at least we agree on one thing: private world creators should get to control who gets to play in their world.

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evo300

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Reply #18 on: April 22, 2008, 07:53:33 am
and if the owner is losing to someone then they might throw them out for being more advanced thean them
and that wouldnt be allowed.

i think the admin should get a say before someone gets thrown out.
they would be like a judge in court.
all the evidence before them then they can overrule the decision.
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Wizzie

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Reply #19 on: April 22, 2008, 09:25:59 am
In another game that I play we have a system that deals with idiots, game ruiners and AWOLs

We start off with a driver "sacking" (This is a racing game I'm talking about) his teammate. He states his reason and his teammate has 36 hours to object.

If he objects within the 36 hours then a vote begins with other drivers, the sacker and the sackee voting in a poll. After the poll is finished (24-36 hours) the majority rules.

The sacking can be abandoned by the sacker before the sackee objects but if you do you can't sack him again

This will be a great system to use because in that game it's been used for well over a year with only 1 or 2 complaints
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Reply #20 on: April 22, 2008, 09:40:42 am
Quote from: "Wizzie"
In another game that I play we have a system that deals with idiots, game ruiners and AWOLs

We start off with a driver "sacking" (This is a racing game I'm talking about) his teammate. He states his reason and his teammate has 36 hours to object.

If he objects within the 36 hours then a vote begins with other drivers, the sacker and the sackee voting in a poll. After the poll is finished (24-36 hours) the majority rules.

The sacking can be abandoned by the sacker before the sackee objects but if you do you can't sack him again

This will be a great system to use because in that game it's been used for well over a year with only 1 or 2 complaints


I like it, except you should be able to 'sack' people as many times as you want. If they do something stupid once, they'll do it again..
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yourefired

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Reply #21 on: April 22, 2008, 01:23:06 pm
Quote from: "evo300"
and if the owner is losing to someone then they might throw them out for being more advanced thean them
and that wouldnt be allowed.


Why shouldn't that be allowed? It's a private world. Private worlds get to pick and choose their members, and who is allowed to stay as members. If you bought a private home, you're allowed to throw people out for any reason, in good or bad faith, or no reason at all, aren't you? I haven't seen a strong argument for placing any check on a creator's discretion to throw people out, other than that people will act in bad faith, and that people will direct their anger at the membership admins. Like I said. People need to want to join private worlds in order for private games to happen and people aren't going to join worlds where the creator kicks them out for being better than them. That falls under bad sportsmanship. If Private World A has a reputation for its creator being fair and appropriate, more people are going to want to join it vs. Private World B where the creator is a sore loser and throws out anyone who does better than them.

Like I said, they're exclusionary by nature. The owner, who made the requisite token investment, gets to decide what criteria to condition the continued membership of other members on. Like I said, if hosts behave arbitrarily or capriciously (treat members like crap), most likely people will leave or never want to join their world, so that should be a reason for hosts to act reasonably. I frankly intend to come down very harshly on game ruiners and idiots, because that isn't the spirit of my private world. My private world is for people who want to have fun. Having game ruiners go 10x all over the place is NOT fun and will be strictly and explicitly prohibited and consequences for violators will be dire (warning then explusion, permanent ban from any future worlds created by me). Besides, I figure the game ruiners are going to bitch and moan no matter what you do so I'm gonna act in accordance with the purpose for which I created a private game (to exclude idiots, game ruiners and steamrollers).

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dktc

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Reply #22 on: April 22, 2008, 01:43:10 pm
The argument is that the host need to pay a significant amount of tokens to create a world but the players joining need to pay a certain amount of token as well. If you kick them, they lose their tokens.

Let's said, if someone creates a unprotected private world inviting a lot of players in (practically opening the private world to anyone and everyone). The condition of the world is attractive (80's/90's, 10 fc with unlimited foreign, start with a concorde... etc.), and a lot of people joined. Then, 6 game months into the game, the host kick everyone out.... the harm is already done, as in those players have lost their tokens. The "reputation" is a social reaction, not a preventive measure. And then... who gets the heat? The admin team because players would complain and demand their tokens back. Simple. I don't know why you don't see the possibility of issues here, seeing that you are a smart potential lawyer.
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yourefired

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Reply #23 on: April 22, 2008, 02:07:39 pm
I understand that, but I think people need to understand that risks of joining a private world, that something like that could happen.

I could see the admin team not wanting to take on the liability of admins having unchecked power, but reputation is supposed to serve as a deterrent as well as a social reaction. And you shouldn't take on that liability. Of course. But if you apply to a university and are denied admission, you eat the application fee too. And if you're admitted and are expelled, you eat whatever you paid in tuition too (on top of the application fee), unless you got tuition insurance. If they expel you unfairly, you can sue the university and get some restitution. Perhaps offer token "insurance"? You pay 40 tokens instead of 30 or something like that and then you're eligible for reimbursement (if you were expelled for reasons other than rule violation or unfairly expelled). Or create some sort of dispute system (if you go this route, I'll be more than happy to adjudicate).

And you're absolutely right, there needs to be a system to check the abuse of discretion, but wholesale denial of discretion isn't the solution here.

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dktc

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Reply #24 on: April 22, 2008, 02:21:18 pm
Quote from: "yourefired"
And you're absolutely right, there needs to be a system to check the abuse of discretion, but wholesale denial of discretion isn't the solution here.


Quote from: "dktc"
I am not saying hosts should not be able to ban players from the private worlds they create, but rather I am saying that there should be some mechanism in place to prevent abuses of authority.


My point :roll:

And again, the reputation issue does not deter people from doing so. If they want to screw the game and some players up, they do so. Deterrance is only 1 theory in deviant behavior under the ration choice category, stating that the subject would choose to perform the deviant act or not by weighing the costs and the benefits. If you look at other famlies of theories, such as conflict theories, which says that people are naturally anti-social, and strait theories, which says that people perform deviant acts when they experience negative emotions due to (perceived/expected) negative treatments by others, deterrance may not even work. If we follow labeling theories, when we label someone a cheater / abuser, they would perform more severe deviant acts eventually. That said, you should not get trapped in normative thinking, and believe that deterrance would work for everyone.
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tropico

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Reply #25 on: April 22, 2008, 03:39:38 pm
If you'd allow me to interrupt your dialog...
I have to agree with yourefired this time. Because the private worlds is an ideal place to have our set of things, which AM doesn't regulate as of now. If I had my own world there would be no 1$ routes, Frequencies should be no more than 4, no more than 3 players in airport and etc. Now if we want the players to stick to our imposed rules we must have some levers as well. Password is the one thing. With password we'll be able to allow only the people we want to (but if the password is the same, there's a risk of illegal access, so we should approve members, before allowing them to play), but with sacking abilities, we'll, obviously, be able to kick players which do not follow our rules. Of course it would be great if we would be able to impose some fines or something.

Now talking about sacking abuse... Once again, I think it's my choice who I want to kick and for what reason. I paid for the private world, so I should have the power to do anything I want. If I'm creator of a world, it doesn't necessarily mean that I have to adjust to users. It's them who have to agree to my command. AM admins should have some levers as well, such as some rules. Something like - no kicking without reason, but that's foolish and childish. It's the users fault for joining the wrong world and the forum would be a great place to find which world will suit them best. Furthermore, if you don't want to loose credits, stay in public worlds. There will always be some room in public worlds due to the nature of multiworlds system.
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dktc

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Reply #26 on: April 22, 2008, 03:46:11 pm
hmm.... let's stand back and think for a minute. So far, everyone are saying that they would be the one kicking people. Of course the host should have certain power, I am not objecting to that (as stated numerous times). The issue is someone has to be the player who joins, ie. not the host. If not, we would have hundreds of private worlds each with one player in it.

What I am asking out of you all is to switch your point of view to a player joining a non-protected private world using tokens that you have purchased with real money. Do you want to be kicked by some kids (like say... Jps :P  :wink: ) without reason other than they want to? It is simple as that.
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tropico

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Reply #27 on: April 22, 2008, 04:16:00 pm
Well, would you think before investing your money? :)
I see it this way. I buy tokens, I choose. If I do some research, I'll be able to choose world suited for me. Of course simple user needs some guarantees as well. But I can't think of a way to protect them. In a matter of fact I don't think that we need to protect them from their stupid decisions.

Like we say in Lithuania "Bijai vilko, neik į mišką" adapted it to this situation would mean, if you're afraid to loose your tokens or smthg, stay in public world.
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Reply #28 on: April 22, 2008, 04:19:46 pm
Quote from: "tropico"
If I had my own world there would be no 1$ routes, Frequencies should be no more than 4, no more than 3 players in airport and etc.

Fine. I would just take 747's and do 3 frequencies at €2. Technically, that's legal in your world, but I'd bet you'd kick me out. :roll: I love how people talk about their "own worlds" and setting ridiculous rules like this. It will certainly be your "own world" ... because you'd be the only one playing in it. Honestly, who would want to play in your sand box when most everyone will have enough tokens to build their own and have their own set of rules?

To me, private worlds is about a group of people wanting to play the AM game without outsiders. For example, the FT Alliance would consider moving into our own private world so that we would only be competing against each other and not worrying about stepping on everyone else's toes. We are all pretty savvy on this game, but if someone wants to drop a 10-freq 777 on JFK-LGA, go for it. So long as no one is cheating and is following the basic AM rules, anything goes.

Quote

(but if the password is the same, there's a risk of illegal access, so we should approve members, before allowing them to play)

IMO, by approving someone into your world, you've basically said they can play in your sandbox. Hopefully you've done your own due diligence (i.e., researching) in making sure this player doesn't drop ridiculous frequencies on routes or loves to set fares at €1 before you let that person in.

Of course, I could also see a situation where (and I hope) there is minimum player quota for PW, and playings starting post on the forums stuff like "WE'LL ACCEPT ANYONE! JUST JOIN OUR WORLD!". Within a few game months, those suckers that join get booted for very random reasons. They lose out on tokens, and the creator of the PW can enjoy less competition.
             
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tropico

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Reply #29 on: April 22, 2008, 04:32:54 pm
Quote from: "pseudoswede"
Quote from: "tropico"
If I had my own world there would be no 1$ routes, Frequencies should be no more than 4, no more than 3 players in airport and etc.

Fine. I would just take 747's and do 3 frequencies at €2. Technically, that's legal in your world, but I'd bet you'd kick me out. :roll: I love how people talk about their "own worlds" and setting ridiculous rules like this. It will certainly be your "own world" ... because you'd be the only one playing in it. Honestly, who would want to play in your sand box when most everyone will have enough tokens to build their own and have their own set of rules?

To me, private worlds is about a group of people wanting to play the AM game without outsiders. For example, the FT Alliance would consider moving into our own private world so that we would only be competing against each other and not worrying about stepping on everyone else's toes. We are all pretty savvy on this game, but if someone wants to drop a 10-freq 777 on JFK-LGA, go for it. So long as no one is cheating and is following the basic AM rules, anything goes.

Quote

(but if the password is the same, there's a risk of illegal access, so we should approve members, before allowing them to play)

IMO, by approving someone into your world, you've basically said they can play in your sandbox. Hopefully you've done your own due diligence (i.e., researching) in making sure this player doesn't drop ridiculous frequencies on routes or loves to set fares at €1 before you let that person in.

Of course, I could also see a situation where (and I hope) there is minimum player quota for PW, and playings starting post on the forums stuff like "WE'LL ACCEPT ANYONE! JUST JOIN OUR WORLD!". Within a few game months, those suckers that join get booted for very random reasons. They lose out on tokens, and the creator of the PW can enjoy less competition.


Feel free to create your world with your 'smart' rules, and I'll be in mine with ridiculous rules. That's fine with me.
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