The aircraft question before the age start..

Max2147 · **Reply #30 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:27:13 am

Quote from: "dktc"

It is not about the honor system really. It is more like "we die with honor" if you get my drift. :wink:
Our conclusion was that without the cash from airlines, the brokerage would not work well at all. It is a decision between honor and survival, and obviously, choosing only one wouldn't work.

A brokerage could be profitable. But the problem is that a brokerage would never be as profitable as an airline. In other words, the brokerage accounts would not be able to keep up with other airlines and there would be a very very very long waiting list due to cash flow problems of the brokerage.

Don't get me wrong, we welcome suggestions. It is just that we need some more creative, and workable and feasible ideas.

I guess I don't get your drift. I don't see a well-run brokerage with additional starting cash and the benefit of getting scrapped planes dying, with or without honor. Leases are a fantastic source of income - I found that out last round.

I guess what's bugging me most is that the problem of the unfair advantage on the airline side won't be fixed until those who have the power to fix it recognize it as a problem. Unfortunately, those who have the power to fix it are the ones benefitting from the problem.

Air Elbonia · **Reply #31 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:32:14 am

I don't benefit a lick from it. I'm not a game broker. I've designed entire systems for game brokers that i cannot even use along the way (a little batch lease tool for new aircraft).

I'm debating disabling the ability for brokers to receive scrapped aircraft before the age starts, and just have all scrapped aircraft disappear into the void. but it will not affect any scrapped aircraft to date. Brokers tend to be outpaced in the long run by airlines who actively maintain their route network, I've got ideas in my head for how to amend the broker system to reduce the need for the personal airlines but i cannot yet justify banning their ability to create routes and rent gates. I cannot see how, long term, they can keep up with the needs of the game (aircraft prices wise), nor can i see how a full age of not being able to create any routes would be particularly fun.

If only i could plug my brain into the code and update it all mentally... things would get done a lot faster then. it would be so nice.

Max2147 · **Reply #32 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:11:18 am

Quote from: "Air Elbonia"

I don't benefit a lick from it. I'm not a game broker. I've designed entire systems for game brokers that i cannot even use along the way (a little batch lease tool for new aircraft).

I'm debating disabling the ability for brokers to receive scrapped aircraft before the age starts, and just have all scrapped aircraft disappear into the void. but it will not affect any scrapped aircraft to date. Brokers tend to be outpaced in the long run by airlines who actively maintain their route network, I've got ideas in my head for how to amend the broker system to reduce the need for the personal airlines but i cannot yet justify banning their ability to create routes and rent gates. I cannot see how, long term, they can keep up with the needs of the game (aircraft prices wise), nor can i see how a full age of not being able to create any routes would be particularly fun.

If only i could plug my brain into the code and update it all mentally... things would get done a lot faster then. it would be so nice.

I know you don't benefit from it, but DEX made it sound like the brokers had a pretty active role in deciding what the rules surrounding brokers would be.

As far as no routes being no fun, that's why I suggested letting the brokers run independent airlines as well. That way they can have the work (broker) and the play (airline), and still have it be fair for everybody.

I also like the idea of updating code mentally - I wish I could have done that when I was writing code!

UAT · **Reply #33 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:36:02 am

all the used aircraft i purchasd from the brokers were at half price of value, i dont see a problem in the brokerage system as long as its played fair(eg brokers not giving majority of planes to alliance members)

Max2147 · **Reply #34 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:43:03 am

Quote from: "UAT"

all the used aircraft i purchasd from the brokers were at half price of value, i dont see a problem in the brokerage system as long as its played fair(eg brokers not giving majority of planes to alliance members)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing the brokerage system as a whole. I'm just criticizing the fact that the same privileges that let brokers sell you planes at half price also give them a big advantage in running their airlines.

UAT · **Reply #35 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:46:15 am

Quote from: "Max2147"

Quote from: "UAT"
all the used aircraft i purchasd from the brokers were at half price of value, i dont see a problem in the brokerage system as long as its played fair(eg brokers not giving majority of planes to alliance members)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing the brokerage system as a whole. I'm just criticizing the fact that the same privileges that let brokers sell you planes at half price also give them a big advantage in running their airlines.

if they are unable to make profit they wont survive, they need revenue for maintinance for the aircrafts they get from scraps, they need money to complete broker requests under 0%.

juancho · **Reply #36 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:52:05 am

Quote from: "UAT"

all the used aircraft i purchasd from the brokers were at half price of value, i dont see a problem in the brokerage system as long as its played fair(eg brokers not giving majority of planes to alliance members)

Actually I don't think brokers should be in any alliance. Unless each alliance has their own broker. Total conflict of interest.

Jps · **Reply #37 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:53:19 am

Quote from: "juancho"

Quote from: "UAT"
all the used aircraft i purchasd from the brokers were at half price of value, i dont see a problem in the brokerage system as long as its played fair(eg brokers not giving majority of planes to alliance members)

Actually I don't think brokers should be in any alliance. Unless each alliance has their own broker. Total conflict of interest.

Why can't they? They just want to be in alliances like us.

juancho · **Reply #38 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:07:44 am

The logic is quite simple.

There are only what 3-4 brokers in the game? If they belong in some alliance, which isn't necesarry to be a broker anyway, the potential for favoritism is too high.

What happens is you end up with 60-80 airlines that have "special alliance" rates and everyone else is stuck with regular markdown rates. For brokers to be fair across the board for all airlines in the game they should remain independent.

Of course they can do whatever they want and sell at extreme markdown for their buddies but the totaly perverts the spirit of the game.

Surely they will say, "ya but we don't do that." But how do you know? Maybe at first it doesn't happen but then little by little it spirals our of control. So to avoid "potential" conflict of interests brokers should remain independent.

Jps · **Reply #39 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:10:54 am

Then why dont you join the alliance that brokers support?

juancho · **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:12:55 am

Quote from: "Jps"

Then why dont you join the alliance that brokers support?

Because they are invitation only or only for their buddies.

& for some airlines alliances go against their operational philosophy.

Jps · **Reply #41 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:14:44 am

USG (for example) isnt invite only...

pseudoswede · **Reply #42 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:32:08 am

Quote from: "Jps"

USG (for example) isnt invite only...

What he meant to say was that it's restricted memberships, which requires approval of the members to join. If some people don't like the airline, they'll obviously vote no.

I don't think any broker is a member of an alliance with an open membership.

I also don't understand the points of alliances. Why allow other "alliance members" to steal upwards of 20 routes (per member!) from my own base when I should be doing them myself?

Jps · **Reply #43 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:35:56 am

^ yea.. but you can always connect to the alliance's forum

Max2147 · **Reply #44 on:** October 12, 2007, 08:42:08 am

Quote from: "pseudoswede"

Quote from: "Jps"
USG (for example) isnt invite only...

What he meant to say was that it's restricted memberships, which requires approval of the members to join. If some people don't like the airline, they'll obviously vote no.

I don't think any broker is a member of an alliance with an open membership.

I also don't understand the points of alliances. Why allow other "alliance members" to steal upwards of 20 routes (per member!) from my own base when I should be doing them myself?

If you don't have the planes.

Last round I didn't own any longhaul aircraft. I would have been happy to allow an alliance member to operate longhauls out of my hubs since they were routes I wouldn't fly. In return I would have been able to operate the short-haul style flights I was used to out of their hubs.