Massive Airlines

ALFC · **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2007, 10:59:21 pm

Quote from: "zkvac"

The thing is, I can't afford it. I'm getting 50 grand a day. Do i just wait and keep saving?

i can lease you some planes for very very little money, if that helps you to expand!

pTr · **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2007, 11:01:53 pm

alright... I'm still considered relatively new to this game.. since this is only my second round, but I'm wanna share a little experience of mine. Seriously, dun believe it when people tell you starting at mid/smaller airports will do you good later on in the game, cuz it won't. People often try to tell you larger airports means more competition, and more competition means lower price... but com'n, with a 10 frequency flight, you can fly at 1/10 of the price and still make the same profit(almost the same). People who start at large airports get a head start, and by the time people start lowering the prices, they already have enough to afford designating 1 plane per route, flying at the highest frequency possible. So seriously, my point being... starting at smaller airports DOESN'T give you anything... except for a lower ranking(as I said, in my point of view). Sorry to contradict you dktc, but... I'm somehow getting the feeling... high density means everything..

Blue Sky Mine · **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2007, 11:04:54 pm

Quote from: "nofrills"

Some of us calculate cost per available seat mile, nickel and dime passengers with stupid fees, screw small towns with only one flight every other day and charge $2000 because there's no competition, all the while bleeding our employees' pension and refuse to renegotiate their pay. Wait, it's just like rl ...

You're right... I never realized that before. Hey Stephen, we need to be able to lower wages :twisted:

nofrills · **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2007, 12:22:02 am

Doing well is a relative term. If you want to be top 20 world-wide then you can't ignore large airports. However if you want to sleep well at night, and wake up in the morning with your DOP relatively intact, go with small towns.

With large airports, even if you have 3 competitors (each in an alliance), you'll be fighting all their flights plus 3x20 from their alliance partners, on virtually every route you fly. At a small airport, against each competitor you might fight on 1 or 2 routes at most. Also, if you pick a base that's far away from big hubs (~600mi), it's less likely that big airlines dump their remaining block time on your town, as it'll take 2-3hrs free time.

I'd say that bread and butter routes for new players should be ones where people play nice, where it's below the radar, maybe 4-6 airlines doing 0.5 or 1 turn each, and are content to leave it alone. As long as that incremental DOP is paying for that gate fee, plus hub's fractional gate fee (# of slots used), it's a good thing. Positive cash flow from a route is always good, and higher revenue is just icing.

ALFC · **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2007, 01:03:37 am

its all a matter of perspective.
aria and me for example have not only micro managed routes but also contemplated the general strategical approach, its the reason why we not solely went for the biggest airports, i.e. LHR is suicide. you trade maximized revenue for safety when going for a smaller airport. not even the biggest players in the game went for an all big approach.
i still consider it a more sensible approach to go for not too big airports when new in the game OR when you dont have a "bigger picture" plan on how you maximize profit and defend your position.

right now the highest dop is owned by europacific, close to 130m. he went not only for "all big airports" but also a truckload of alliancerouting, kind of being fed extrahubs there. right now the dop is higher compared to others, but the round is still 8.5 years to go, i assume he will take by far the biggest cut from attacks at his hubs, as they are all the biggest hubs on his continent, with no place of diversification.
one could anticipate that he will scale the first position around early 1952, but the question remains if he will be able to pull through the remaining 8 years, unless he decides to abandon LAX and ORD at some point.

another interesting number: some of the top players are currently buying about 55!! constellations per real life day

pTr · **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2007, 03:07:05 am

well... as I was saying, when people play this game, most of them are lookiing, or at least hoping to achieve top rankings, so large airports are the most dominant factor. As for Aria, although you are not using the largest airport LHR, but frankfurt... thats a huge airport too... and lets be honest, if it wasn't becuz of the distance between large european airports, you probably won't be all the way up there. 5 out of the top 10 are based in Europe, and 4 in N.America, 1 in Asia. This is probably becuz of the limitation of the aircrafts this round, as seen from last round, 8 out of the top 10 were based in Asia. So, I'm not attacking anyone's statement, I admit that they all make sense, I'm just saying, if ranking matters to you, then dun believe in the basing in smaller airport talk.

dktc · **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2007, 03:24:54 am

The most profitable routes from my experience are the 10~25 million range airports to 5~15 million range. Being in the top airports mean lot of competition. Prices drop like crazy. You just can't have 6 mega-airports as bases.

It also depends on the planes and the location of the airports. After extensive research the round before, last round, I achieved 1st rank at the beginning by using KHI and LHE, as well as CTU (although I have to admit HKG and PEK were very good as well). KHI, LHE, CTU were no where near the typical mega-airports, but it is not solely about the DOP. You also have to look at your investment. For KHI and LHE, I could use a B737 and fly tons of routes to Europe. CTU is also much closer to Europe than the mega-airports, like HKG, PEK, ICN, HND... etc, so I could use IL's instead of B747/B767's for the long-hauls. The price of the planes count heavily into the business decision. Now, I can tell you that this line up would not work in this round, because of the limitation of the planes but it illustrates the point that being at the largest airports may not be always be the best choice. (But then, if you choose to start at an airport with less than 10 mil pax, you are doomed for sure). It is important to look at the big picture and see what you could do to make the most out of what you have.

Another factor that a lot of junior players have not taken into consideration is how your hubs locate in relation to one another. Are the hubs near to each other or are they all spreadout in different places all around the region? The closer your hubs are located, the easier you could use similar types of planes to fly to the same destination. That increase your efficiency as in you are paying the gate rent anyway, so use the most out of them. You can fly from hub a to destination c, and using the same plane, from hub b to destination c. By using that model, you would be using 2 slots in 1 destination gate, instead of 1 slot each in 2 destination gates.

zkvac · **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2007, 04:17:49 am

Quote from: "ALFC"

Quote from: "zkvac"

The thing is, I can't afford it. I'm getting 50 grand a day. Do i just wait and keep saving?

i can lease you some planes for very very little money, if that helps you to expand!

Thanks, I am looking at something capable of doing Wellington -> Australia (around 1500 NM). I am in negative cash for the moment, but I will be back to positive in a couple of days. I might get my account reset, and then lease a larger aircraft from you and stick to main trunk routes

Could you please PM me to tell me how much we are talking?

ALFC · **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2007, 09:58:33 am

Quote from: "dktc"

The price of the planes count heavily into the business decision. Now, I can tell you that this line up would not work in this round, because of the limitation of the planes but it illustrates the point that being at the largest airports may not be always be the best choice

the "plane" question is still a very current one, as the range limitations can play a big difference in hub locations that differ a new 100 miles

nwadeltaboy · **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2007, 06:38:33 pm

bases are the most important part. Get a medium sized airport--in your neck of the woods, Cairns or Adelaide--and make it a base. Small enough to not have much compitition, yet big enough to yield good loadfactors.

Pilgrim · **Reply #25 on:** November 25, 2007, 09:13:11 pm

All it took me was time and aggressive expansion.

3 tips i can give you:

1> Stick with the DC-3 until you can afford either the Martins or Curtis or Convair. The smaller stuff just isn't worth it... especially with the market for DC-3s right now.
2> Try and avoid competing with ACTIVE larger airlines, they tend to have a lot more money than you can afford to compete with (in other words if all of a sudden you find your 1x DC-3 set up against 8x L1049... i would quit the route...)
3> Lots of 1x or even 0.5x (though don't overdo the 0.5 thing, its considered by some to be "cheating" or at least "cheap lamer tactics") to lots of places is better than a few 3/4x to fewer places.

Fox Airways · **Reply #26 on:** November 26, 2007, 02:36:35 am

i'm running into a different problem, decent loads about $100k DOP per day, but i only have one gate at my hub (there's no more available in it), can't afford to build a terminal, or expand at a different airport.

Air Elbonia · **Reply #27 on:** November 26, 2007, 03:19:56 am

Quote from: "Fox Airways"

i'm running into a different problem, decent loads about $100k DOP per day, but i only have one gate at my hub (there's no more available in it), can't afford to build a terminal, or expand at a different airport.

an alliance may be a way around that, as you get to share hubs. you risk other members being able to use your hubs and hurt your routes, but you may gain access (if they have alliance routes free) to other players hubs, essentially reducing the cost of a second focus city to the cost of a gate at the airport. However, alliance routes are very limited, so you may only get a few flights here and there. I won't advertise any specific alliance, but they can be helpful in other ways as well, so. check out the alliance recruitment forums if you're curious.

zkvac · **Reply #28 on:** November 26, 2007, 06:19:16 am

Quote from: "Pilgrim"

All it took me was time and aggressive expansion.
> Lots of 1x or even 0.5x (though don't overdo the 0.5 thing, its considered by some to be "cheating" or at least "cheap lamer tactics") to lots of places is better than a few 3/4x to fewer places.

Wouldn't this be bad as you are paying gate rental fees but not earning as much as you could if you were going 3/4x to that destination?

I have a dilemma. I have a Comet 1 which is one of my biggest earners but the fuel usage is killing me. What should I do? Lease (from Green

) is $980,000/month, and it's earning roughly 60,000 a day.

Dora · **Reply #29 on:** November 26, 2007, 08:28:18 am

Quote from: "zkvac"

Quote from: "Pilgrim"
All it took me was time and aggressive expansion.
> Lots of 1x or even 0.5x (though don't overdo the 0.5 thing, its considered by some to be "cheating" or at least "cheap lamer tactics") to lots of places is better than a few 3/4x to fewer places.

Wouldn't this be bad as you are paying gate rental fees but not earning as much as you could if you were going 3/4x to that destination?

I have a dilemma. I have a Comet 1 which is one of my biggest earners but the fuel usage is killing me. What should I do? Lease (from Green ) is $980,000/month, and it's earning roughly 60,000 a day.

Forget the rental fees. The more routes you fly, the more profit you will have, no matter you are in big or middle-sized cities (I guess you won't earn at all if you have focus cities in small towns). Generally, you can cope with the rental fees in less than half of a month.

I find it strange, if you fly 2x1 flight on a route, you won't get your profit twice or something near it, maybe just 1.5 times. So for newbies is to avoid more than 2x1 freq flights. Fly more routes and forget the rental fees.

And please beware of the leasing fee. Some players tend to lease many planes when they are expanding and forget they have to pay at the end of each month. I leased 1 dc-3 back in 1950. Later, I buy planes myself. I find it easier to manage my finance.