Airline Mogul Forum

Concerning €1 Routes

travismb99

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Reply #105 on: April 15, 2008, 06:31:43 pm
Yes, the stronger "hub effect" is a great idea.

I mean, Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky would be a semi-major airport, but it would not be the gigantic traffic-magnet it is if it wasn't for the fact that Delta has a giant hub there. The hub built the airport traffic, not the other way around.

One should be able to start in a city like Fresno or Boise, build a hub and attract traffic. Of course, the algorithm should be designed so you can't turn San Luis Obispo Regional Airport into the next Chicago-O'Hare - you can build a hub up from scratch, but it'll never be a giant world-dominating hub (have a curve that allows it to grow in a certain way, based on its original size, the number of routes added, with a certain random factor built in) but this would greatly improve and spread out gameplay. Otherwise, everyone's going for the same airports every round, every time.
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yourefired

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Reply #106 on: April 17, 2008, 03:52:56 am
I think there should be more opportunities to make more economic choices. Like setting employee compensation, or putting in fewer seats for more legroom per seat or more amenities on board, building a lounge, buying bigger, nicer planes vs. tiny turboprops, spending more on maintenance, etc. etc.  :wink:

This will force people to more carefully weigh the costs of paying employees more, putting in fewer seats in favor of inflight amenities or for more legroom, and such vs. the benefits of happier employees (better reputation), fewer seats on board/inflight amenities (better reputation) and the resulting bump in fares, or choosing to pay employees less (unhappy employees, perhaps labor problems, but cuts costs), putting in more seats (more tickets, but unhappy customers, takes a hit on reputation), and flying decrepit planes (hit on reputation but more profit).

It'll make the game a more complex, interesting truly economic simulation rather than a clickfest fare war. I guess multiclass seating is the first step in that direction.

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Steeler83

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Reply #107 on: April 18, 2008, 04:17:39 am
Quote from: "yourefired"
I think there should be more opportunities to make more economic choices. Like setting employee compensation, or putting in fewer seats for more legroom per seat or more amenities on board, building a lounge, buying bigger, nicer planes vs. tiny turboprops, spending more on maintenance, etc. etc.  :wink:

This will force people to more carefully weigh the costs of paying employees more, putting in fewer seats in favor of inflight amenities or for more legroom, and such vs. the benefits of happier employees (better reputation), fewer seats on board/inflight amenities (better reputation) and the resulting bump in fares, or choosing to pay employees less (unhappy employees, perhaps labor problems, but cuts costs), putting in more seats (more tickets, but unhappy customers, takes a hit on reputation), and flying decrepit planes (hit on reputation but more profit).

It'll make the game a more complex, interesting truly economic simulation rather than a clickfest fare war. I guess multiclass seating is the first step in that direction.

Good idea, but that's just it.  I think that would take a lot of work to try and create.  It would be neat, nonetheless...
teeler83
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yourefired

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Reply #108 on: April 19, 2008, 03:45:53 am
Quote from: "Steeler83"
Quote from: "yourefired"
I think there should be more opportunities to make more economic choices. Like setting employee compensation, or putting in fewer seats for more legroom per seat or more amenities on board, building a lounge, buying bigger, nicer planes vs. tiny turboprops, spending more on maintenance, etc. etc.  :wink:

This will force people to more carefully weigh the costs of paying employees more, putting in fewer seats in favor of inflight amenities or for more legroom, and such vs. the benefits of happier employees (better reputation), fewer seats on board/inflight amenities (better reputation) and the resulting bump in fares, or choosing to pay employees less (unhappy employees, perhaps labor problems, but cuts costs), putting in more seats (more tickets, but unhappy customers, takes a hit on reputation), and flying decrepit planes (hit on reputation but more profit).

It'll make the game a more complex, interesting truly economic simulation rather than a clickfest fare war. I guess multiclass seating is the first step in that direction.

Good idea, but that's just it.  I think that would take a lot of work to try and create.  It would be neat, nonetheless...


Well there could be some kind of formula that calculates "reputation factor" or something like that...based on computerized mystery shoppers. It could be based on things like fleet, legroom, inflight amenities, etc. so that smaller airlines actually have a chance.

Like I said, multiclass seating is a step in this direction. But I'd like to take it further and propose that things like that be a factor in demand/fares (distance, flight time, airplane used, etc.). I mean think about it, if someone wanted to fly you cross country (JFK-SFO) in a Tupolev turboprop held together by duct tape with 28" pitchfor $300 vs. in a brand new A330 with 33" pitch, personal TV and food for $400, wouldn't YOU spend the extra $100? I sure as hell would. Without a second thought. You can't put a price on safety.

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Steeler83

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Reply #109 on: April 19, 2008, 05:10:49 am
I would do the same and spend the extra 100 bucks.  About the multi class seating, I am all for that as well.  How about if someone were to have fare structures for each class (1 for coach, 1 for business, 1 for First), and have the profit based on those 3 fares, frequencies, aircraft type, and the competion's fares in those classes, frequency, and aircraft type.  For each class, we could select our own configurations. :-)
teeler83
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yourefired

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Reply #110 on: April 19, 2008, 04:53:39 pm
That's what I'm saying. Flight time and aircraft type should all be a factor in deciding fares. It's horrendously inaccurate for someone to assume that a seat is just a seat because a seat is NOT just a seat. Factors other than price need to be taken into consideration. It's ridiculous to assume that someone would pay more to fly from JFK-LAX than JFK-CDG.

It's also inconceivable that someone someone would pay the same amount of money to fly between two major cities in 8 hours vs. 3 hours. The game needs to allow for more differentiation. And no, price "differentiation" doesn't count.

The solution is to have multiple different market "sectors" you can cater to, and for each sector the most important factor is different. It's just simply not realistic for someone to assume that a seat on board a supersonic jet is no different than a seat on board a crappy turboprop (which is what the game assumes-perfect competition, no differentiation in the product offered, when in fact there IS differentiation). A 10 year round where there's no product differentiation would just bore people into leaving.

This is the only way, short of heavy, heavy regulation, to slow down or eliminate the saturation in the game. Force people to, I don't know, THINK before (and even after) they act. Yes, the game will get more complex, yes, the era of the trillion dollar airlines is over, and yes, running a huge 10,000 route airline would take so long nobody would be able to do it short of quitting their jobs (which is the point)  but this would make the game much more enjoyable. As of now, it's kind of tedious. Competitiveness entails mobility up and down the rankings. When you do the same thing over and over and over and over again, you get bored. And I like this game, don't get me wrong, but it's still a hobby. And I'd like it to be, um, enjoyable. Make the right decision and enjoy the fruits of your success. Make the wrong decision, and well, have fun going bankrupt. The way it's set up this isn't a strategic game, it's a finger reflex game.

As far as the airline industry goes, it's a HEAVILY differentiated industry. No two products are the same. You have everything from decreipt US Scareways and Southwest and their emphasis on low fares to Virgin America and their mood lighting and high tech entertainment to jetBlue and their extra legroom and DirecTV and that's just in the US domestic market. If you go to the international market there's even more differentiation.

Thus some changes I'm suggesting:
1. Segment the market into different sectors: even a big airline can't realistically serve 12 different segments of the market at once.
2. Massive product differentiation: prices aren't affected as much when no two products are alike.
3. More realistic pricing: it's absurd to assume that one pays $800 to fly from JFK-IAD then $800 to fly from JFK-CDG. Make the price-distance proportion much more blatant. Price higher for shorter flight times. Give monopolies and oligopolies much more pricing power.
4. Make image a factor in the game: when you fly newer planes, have kinder staff, and have generally a pristine image, more flyers come to you.
5. Provide for a discount on maintenance for a more uniform fleet (makes sense; it costs exponentially more if you have to train mechanics on 45 different airplane types from 25 different manufacturers rather than just one or two or three, all from the same manufacturer): this forces people to choose their first planes carefully (slowing saturation-people are going to have to take more time choosing their planes) because they know that it gets exponentially more expensive to have more than 4-5 airplane types in a fleet.
6. Make it exponentially more expensive to become huge and bloated: in the real world, airlines that try to be everything to everyone have historically not done well.
7. Make it so that people can compete on something other than scale: to assume that the airline that carries the most passengers is the most successful is a ludicrous and absurd assumption. Often the biggest airlines are the ones that people are least satisfied with and have been through bankruptcy the most times. As much as it's difficult for people to imagine, things like service and legroom actually matter.
8. Constantly change the nature of the game every so often so that in no two games the strategy would be successful both times. Meaning make the game so that strategy A would only be successful in game A but not game B, C, D, or E. As of now, strategy A succeeds in game A-E and the same people win, every time.
9. Make sure that there are catastrophic consequences for making the wrong decision: and the "right decision" is different every time.
And finally, 9. link the activities in all sectors of the markets you serve with each other, and link your activities with image: i.e. what you do in the business traveler market has a significant impact on what happens to you in the vacationer market, your business practices affect your image, etc.

And further, this may be difficult to implement, but I'd like to see other players in the industry come in as well. The airline industry, like any other industry, is a consortium of industries. You have the airlines themselves, aircraft makers, and airplane brokers/holding corporations (the obvious players), and then you have the not so obvious ones like consultants, lawyers, bankers, advertising/marketing firms, accountants, ground services contractors, caterers, you name it. I'd like to see those players come into being. That would further spread out the gameplay (in that not everyone's an airline).

Air Canada, LLC (Private W224)


Pacific

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Reply #111 on: April 21, 2008, 09:58:13 pm
Some things about the LF script I learnt during my short time as a moderator:

1. Seats do matter, but only for aircraft with under 70 seats.  For aircraft smaller than 70 seats, your base demand decreases exponentially.

2. Speed is also factored into the LF script.


Max2147

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Reply #112 on: April 21, 2008, 10:06:33 pm
My personal view is that $1 routes should be allowed because they hurt the airlines flying them.  If they want to lose money, they should be allowed to do it.  Their smarter competitors will take their planes and use them to make more money elsewhere.

If the airline using the $1 routes is doing so to try to force their competitors out of the market, they'll be in for a nasty surprise when their competitors jump back in as soon as the prices go back up.

My personal favorite was a competitor that ran 72.5 frequencies against me on a route.  He had 72 frequencies on one plane and 0.5 on another.  Not only had he bought a plane just for that one route, but he was also renting 8 gates at each airport just for the route.  It was the funniest thing I've ever seen in this game.  Sadly, he got smart and cut the route.
lying Badger Airlines


yourefired

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Reply #113 on: April 21, 2008, 10:07:06 pm
To be completely honest I'm just waiting for private worlds so I don't have to deal with the steamrollers.

Air Canada, LLC (Private W224)


lol

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Reply #114 on: April 22, 2008, 02:22:31 am
I see.. time to run 757s atop their 737s and roll them out of the water. lets play then....  :roll:  

ive a few extra planes


Bobandirus

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Reply #115 on: April 22, 2008, 09:57:31 pm
WHY do people run a320s on routs INSIDE england???

LHR - BRS  is being run by several A320s  :evil:


Pacific

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Reply #116 on: April 22, 2008, 10:13:53 pm
Common knowledge:

1. Hell breaks loose at every major airport.

2. If you like Hell, go base at a major airport.

3. If you don't like Hell, RUNNNNNN!!!!!


Steeler83

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Reply #117 on: April 22, 2008, 10:49:09 pm
Quote from: "Max2147"
My personal view is that $1 routes should be allowed because they hurt the airlines flying them.  If they want to lose money, they should be allowed to do it.  Their smarter competitors will take their planes and use them to make more money elsewhere.

If the airline using the $1 routes is doing so to try to force their competitors out of the market, they'll be in for a nasty surprise when their competitors jump back in as soon as the prices go back up.

My personal favorite was a competitor that ran 72.5 frequencies against me on a route.  He had 72 frequencies on one plane and 0.5 on another.  Not only had he bought a plane just for that one route, but he was also renting 8 gates at each airport just for the route.  It was the funniest thing I've ever seen in this game.  Sadly, he got smart and cut the route.

Let me guess... something like JFK-LGA/EWR/BOS/PHL/BWI/DCA/or IAD, or LHR-CDG? or some other rediculous bull crap as such?  I ran PIT and DCA as focus cities last round, but I only had 2 different airplanes doing 1x each between those markets.  I had over 10 gates at each market, but that's because I was serving some 75+ destinations from each...

I think I remember seeing a few rounds ago where someone would be doing a plane with 3x, then another with 4x, then another with 30x or so, and a fourth with like 3.5x.  It's reallly unnecessary.  Is it against the rules to have more than 5x frequencies?  I remember a little while back I got a nice reminder (a warning) about my frequencies.  I had to routes with 6x frequencies on it.  Of course, I don't do the 2x-plus thing anymore.  That approach does not work, and it just pisses everyone else off.  That just kills yields and everyone else on those routes struggles...
teeler83
Founder and CEO of Buon Giorno! Airlines


Steeler83

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Reply #118 on: April 22, 2008, 10:49:46 pm
crap... double post

filler...
teeler83
Founder and CEO of Buon Giorno! Airlines


pseudoswede

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Reply #119 on: April 22, 2008, 11:27:34 pm
Quote from: "Steeler83"
Is it against the rules to have more than 5x frequencies?  I remember a little while back I got a nice reminder (a warning) about my frequencies.


The rule was no more than 10-frequencies (cumulative) per route. That was dropped back in the 50's round (because I ran a 63.5-frequency route :lol:).
             
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