Price slashing...Is there really a point to it or...

[Triple_7]

...someone just can't handle a little competition.

Started playing on the first day of the new round (FW Airways).  Somewhat of a noob to the game but caught on quickly and not doing all that bad really with a DOP over 4.1 billion   But some things have came to my attention lately that kinda kill the fun in the game.  Changes to them now or even when the 60s begin would make it a lot more enjoyable for everyone I think.

Last night I was furious to see the damage caused at my Seattle base by 2 particular airlines which I wont name.  But Seattle is not the only one of my 4 bases to be hit the same way...just the first one to be hit this to this extent.  Somewhere in the range of 10-15 routes from SEA had a load of 0% when I logged on.  All were decent profit routes...lowest price on one was €175 and the highest was €600 the last I had checked them.  Now the highest price of any of them is a whopping €80-€90...2 routes I just threw in the towel and closed  Why...because these 2 airlines decided to go from 1-2 frequency routes to 5-10 frequency routes and have a price so far under everyone else its truly pointless.  Most routes were fairly heavy traffic already.  But one I had a 1 frequency price of €600...after these 2 began there little high frequency low prices rampage...the highest ticket price I could get out of it was a whopping €85 just to get ANY load which at the point it was either €85 and 100% load or €86 and 0% load

Its just downright pointless and ruins it for anyone else on those routes.  The way I feel is these people are no longer in it for the game but they are bored with it and instead of leaving they hang around to ruin it for everyone else.  Personally I would have my finger on the ban button if I had anything to do with it.  Also these people that have a frequency of 10 and a price of €1 on some routes...whats the point there besides just hogging the gates and killing the route.

Just gets annoying this far in the game to find your weeks worth of work destroyed in an hour by someone who slashes the prices to essentially kill the route off.  If they were here to play the game they would compete for high profits like everyone else...not go around setting prices €500 lower then anyone else on the route.  I know theres no limit to frequencies now just so the 0.5 rule followed.  But its to the point where they are not against themselves but bringing everyone else down with them.  Pointless waist of a gate and aircraft to put a 10 frequency route in and set the price to a €1.

Seattle I began wonder about the 2 airlines as I have this odd feeling of a possible multiple account going on.  They both are following the exact same pattern of putting high frequencies and dropping prices to ridiculous levels.  But last night I fought them in a little price war that really made me believe a multi account.  First route I dropped my price by €300 to get a load again...then airline A would drop it by €5 I would have just changed another route to find it had a 0% again.  But in just enough time for someone to log out and back in Airline B would drop his price to the same level as airline A.  Then it would happen on another route....after 2 I sat and watched.  Airline A would drop it 5...just enough time for a quick account switch airline B would come and set the price to the same.  This went on for 5 routes before I gave up competing and went to bed.  But it always followed that pattern of A then B and always the same route one after another.  Admin might look into it.

I could see if they were trying to drive me away...I was originally based in Fort Wayne (FWA) but then expanded to RSW and eventually SEA and PHL.  The only difference in SEA I kinda took over quickly and now hold the most flights out of there (84).  But I set my prices to be fair with everyone and have no more then a couple 2 frequency routes.  Not one 0.5 in my 279 routes.  Most of my prices were higher then the lowest one on the routes so its not like I killed it.  But now SEA is quickly getting killed by these 2 setting prices several hundred lower then anyone and making them large aircraft with high frequencies.  I really cant see the logic in this and its nothing more of an annoyance to some of us.  Another member in my alliance who's using my SEA hub was hit to and feels the same way.

I used to hate the 0.5 people...but the price slashers really ruin the game for me since they actually kill any profit to be found on the routes and not just take over everywhere..  if they are already doing this then I can only imagine what the next 8 years are going to be like

Also theres at least 2, probably more 0.5 issues in Seattle.  2 or 3 airlines not just one.   Point is its just like any other online game, theres always people who have to much free time and get joy out of ruining games for anyone playing them.

Really need to set strict rules and enforce them by either code or by the players reports as it is now.  Personally in the 60s I would do away with the whole 0.5 deal all together since theres so much abuse and its really not realistic in this setup.  See just how it works for a round.  Theres aircraft in the 60's perfectly capable of crossing the pond and back round trip.  The thing in real life is 1 aircraft doesn't operate both segments of the flight continuously.  Situation I've been in...Flight is 14.5 hours LAX-TPE and 14 hours on TPE-LAX on a 747-400.  28 hours total.  

So, in the case of a daily flight...

MH 94 takes off from TPE and lands in LAX.  You depart on MH 95 LAX-TPE a few hours later.  At some point over the Pacific you actually cross paths with another 747-400 operating flight MH 94 TPE-LAX.  

With this game thats not possible to do as one aircraft cant make a one frequency flight in 24 hours.  Therefore the game its actually an alternating pattern between days instead of a daily flight.  The problem is when people put 1 aircraft on 20 0.5 flights to different destinations.  So it just magically reappears at the hub for its next flight...I know its a game but that takes a lot of the realism out of it and leads to the high abuse rate.  Take that away and the game becomes a lot better for those who don't care if we hit the top spot but just want to play it as real as possible.  If you don't have an aircraft that can manage an even frequency then wait till theres one that can.  You may not be able to completely finish off all 24 hours of the aircrafts time but not even real life does that :!:

Sorry for the first post book :shock: ...just have a habit of wanting to improve online games like this.  I was a head admin of another small online game a year or so ago...we changed a lot of rules and codes to fix problems we found or suggestions from players...eventually it was running with a strict set of rules and the occasional person who abused them found themselves under question and usually was banned.  But eventually closed it down due to the few people who continually made a mission to ruin it all for the rest of the players and we were tired of trying to explain why they were banned.  Best thing to do is make a set of rules and set codes in such a way cheating is near impossible or at least quickly found.  As an aviation nut I would hate to see this game go the same way.  Might loose a lot of players because of new rules and codes...but the ones who remain will be the ones who enjoy it and not just getting satisfaction of cheating their way to the top.  Might even bring back players who quit because of constant flood of abuse and cheating. :wink:  Cant understand what satisfaction someone can get from being #1 if they cheated there whole way there :?

[dktc]

(k... i will try to be tactful this time   )

Due to the competitive nature of this type of games, it is inevitable that the ticket price would go down. Although I understand your frustration perfectly as I have experienced it myself, there is no rule against lowering of ticket price currently. I feel for your lost and I truely appreciate your suggestions. However, these issues have been discussed extensively in the near past, and I would take this chance to restate the conclusions again.

As stated, the decrease in ticket prices is an absolute in airline sims. The majority of our forum users have found that limiting the prices would not be constructive to this game. From a gaming point of view, players should have the ability to determine their own prices in relative to their competition, and at the same time keep their own company profitable. It is not up to us to question their business decision. From a realistic point of view, this type of fare wars happen in real life as well, so as a simulation game, it is not realistic enough to rule the possibility out. As a result, the majority of our users who have vioced their opinions agree that limiting the ticket to positive price is the best solution under this circumstance. I can connect to your frustration very well, but we can't really do any about it.

Currectly, we have strict rules against multiple 0.5 frequencies and multiple accounts. If you are suspicious of any of the other players, please don't hesitate to email us at <staff@airlinemogul.com>. We welcome the email inquiries and often time, they do provide valuable information, which help us enforce the rules of this game. Regardless of the situation, you will be provided feedbacks for your email. We value your time, effort and opinions and we will take the time to investigate any reports of rule violations. We try our best to take care of all our valuable customers.

Concerning stricter rules, our opinion is that the stricter the rules are, the less fun people would have. There is the reason we rely on our players to behave themselves and enjoy this game with high level of integrity and moral. We also rely on our players to report on misbehavior because right now we don't have enough man-power to perform checks on every player. Daniel Doorgakant, our membership director, does perform spot checks on larger airports for rule violations, and I focus mainly on multiple accounts. With your experience in managing online games, I hope that you understand our difficulties in maintaining a perfect community, which we aim to, but realistically can't achieve.

Once again, I am sorry to hear your difficulties, but as a community, our players have spoken and we have to listen and cater to the majority of the group. I am sure you could make use of the limited resources in this game and do the best that you could to enjoy it.

[bryandaja]

...someone just can't handle a little competition.

Started playing on the first day of the new round (FW Airways).  Somewhat of a noob to the game but caught on quickly and not doing all that bad really with a DOP over 4.1 billion   But some things have came to my attention lately that kinda kill the fun in the game.  Changes to them now or even when the 60s begin would make it a lot more enjoyable for everyone I think.

Last night I was furious to see the damage caused at my Seattle base by 2 particular airlines which I wont name.  But Seattle is not the only one of my 4 bases to be hit the same way...just the first one to be hit this to this extent.  Somewhere in the range of 10-15 routes from SEA had a load of 0% when I logged on.  All were decent profit routes...lowest price on one was €175 and the highest was €600 the last I had checked them.  Now the highest price of any of them is a whopping €80-€90...2 routes I just threw in the towel and closed  Why...because these 2 airlines decided to go from 1-2 frequency routes to 5-10 frequency routes and have a price so far under everyone else its truly pointless.  Most routes were fairly heavy traffic already.  But one I had a 1 frequency price of €600...after these 2 began there little high frequency low prices rampage...the highest ticket price I could get out of it was a whopping €85 just to get ANY load which at the point it was either €85 and 100% load or €86 and 0% load

Its just downright pointless and ruins it for anyone else on those routes.  The way I feel is these people are no longer in it for the game but they are bored with it and instead of leaving they hang around to ruin it for everyone else.  Personally I would have my finger on the ban button if I had anything to do with it.  Also these people that have a frequency of 10 and a price of €1 on some routes...whats the point there besides just hogging the gates and killing the route.

Just gets annoying this far in the game to find your weeks worth of work destroyed in an hour by someone who slashes the prices to essentially kill the route off.  If they were here to play the game they would compete for high profits like everyone else...not go around setting prices €500 lower then anyone else on the route.  I know theres no limit to frequencies now just so the 0.5 rule followed.  But its to the point where they are not against themselves but bringing everyone else down with them.  Pointless waist of a gate and aircraft to put a 10 frequency route in and set the price to a €1.

Seattle I began wonder about the 2 airlines as I have this odd feeling of a possible multiple account going on.  They both are following the exact same pattern of putting high frequencies and dropping prices to ridiculous levels.  But last night I fought them in a little price war that really made me believe a multi account.  First route I dropped my price by €300 to get a load again...then airline A would drop it by €5 I would have just changed another route to find it had a 0% again.  But in just enough time for someone to log out and back in Airline B would drop his price to the same level as airline A.  Then it would happen on another route....after 2 I sat and watched.  Airline A would drop it 5...just enough time for a quick account switch airline B would come and set the price to the same.  This went on for 5 routes before I gave up competing and went to bed.  But it always followed that pattern of A then B and always the same route one after another.  Admin might look into it.

I could see if they were trying to drive me away...I was originally based in Fort Wayne (FWA) but then expanded to RSW and eventually SEA and PHL.  The only difference in SEA I kinda took over quickly and now hold the most flights out of there (84).  But I set my prices to be fair with everyone and have no more then a couple 2 frequency routes.  Not one 0.5 in my 279 routes.  Most of my prices were higher then the lowest one on the routes so its not like I killed it.  But now SEA is quickly getting killed by these 2 setting prices several hundred lower then anyone and making them large aircraft with high frequencies.  I really cant see the logic in this and its nothing more of an annoyance to some of us.  Another member in my alliance who's using my SEA hub was hit to and feels the same way.

I used to hate the 0.5 people...but the price slashers really ruin the game for me since they actually kill any profit to be found on the routes and not just take over everywhere..  if they are already doing this then I can only imagine what the next 8 years are going to be like

Also theres at least 2, probably more 0.5 issues in Seattle.  2 or 3 airlines not just one.   Point is its just like any other online game, theres always people who have to much free time and get joy out of ruining games for anyone playing them.

Really need to set strict rules and enforce them by either code or by the players reports as it is now.  Personally in the 60s I would do away with the whole 0.5 deal all together since theres so much abuse and its really not realistic in this setup.  See just how it works for a round.  Theres aircraft in the 60's perfectly capable of crossing the pond and back round trip.  The thing in real life is 1 aircraft doesn't operate both segments of the flight continuously.  Situation I've been in...Flight is 14.5 hours LAX-TPE and 14 hours on TPE-LAX on a 747-400.  28 hours total.  

So, in the case of a daily flight...

MH 94 takes off from TPE and lands in LAX.  You depart on MH 95 LAX-TPE a few hours later.  At some point over the Pacific you actually cross paths with another 747-400 operating flight MH 94 TPE-LAX.  

With this game thats not possible to do as one aircraft cant make a one frequency flight in 24 hours.  Therefore the game its actually an alternating pattern between days instead of a daily flight.  The problem is when people put 1 aircraft on 20 0.5 flights to different destinations.  So it just magically reappears at the hub for its next flight...I know its a game but that takes a lot of the realism out of it and leads to the high abuse rate.  Take that away and the game becomes a lot better for those who don't care if we hit the top spot but just want to play it as real as possible.  If you don't have an aircraft that can manage an even frequency then wait till theres one that can.  You may not be able to completely finish off all 24 hours of the aircrafts time but not even real life does that :!:

Sorry for the first post book :shock: ...just have a habit of wanting to improve online games like this.  I was a head admin of another small online game a year or so ago...we changed a lot of rules and codes to fix problems we found or suggestions from players...eventually it was running with a strict set of rules and the occasional person who abused them found themselves under question and usually was banned.  But eventually closed it down due to the few people who continually made a mission to ruin it all for the rest of the players and we were tired of trying to explain why they were banned.  Best thing to do is make a set of rules and set codes in such a way cheating is near impossible or at least quickly found.  As an aviation nut I would hate to see this game go the same way.  Might loose a lot of players because of new rules and codes...but the ones who remain will be the ones who enjoy it and not just getting satisfaction of cheating their way to the top.  Might even bring back players who quit because of constant flood of abuse and cheating. :wink:  Cant understand what satisfaction someone can get from being #1 if they cheated there whole way there :?

This is just one of the challenges you have to be creative about to work around. It's too easy to horde money in this game, might as well get undercut now and then. (By the way, I'm not one of the airlines out of Seattle, it's just my opinion.)

[Vamerica]

I'm one of those 2 airlines and I am not doing any multiple accounts. I just Got new big jets and put them in Seattle because I was being killed there, and to get full load factor I had to lower the price. I'm not trying to kill the game. I'm just a 13 year old kid playing after H/W is over. I suffer the same thing in places. Try Atlanta, that is the worst.

                                                                         Doug


P.S.   The other airline is also killing my routes.

[Air Elbonia]

Thanks for the book, it's nice getting a good read now and then.

To touch on what others have said. Yes, undercutting, capacity dumping, and competition be it small or drastic are inevitable in this game.  Myself and stephen are dealing with the overcrowding of the world at present as fast as we can (if you were writing the code, i'm sure you'd appreciate the dramatic change it would take to rename most of the tables in the game, as this is what it takes to do it right).  I love hearing suggestions and putting them into the game when and as best i can, (well. most of them at least).  I work hard to fix bugs, dktc here is tireless in his struggles against multi's, and i know Stephen, Rick (hpscot08) and Daniel Doorgakant tend to work pretty hard to improve the game in their own ways and jobs.  We're working to make this game as fun as we can, with as much realism as is still fun.

Oh, and concerning the multiple .5's I have a solution which should drastically reduce the unrealistic .5's (it is not perfect however) present in the game.  It's simply too impractical to launch mid-age, and it's too mean at present to surprise everyone with a reset without a dramatic bug as a valid cause.

you worked on, coded? and administrated a different game?  this intrigues me.  i'd like to hear more about it, either here or probably better in pm or on gtalk.

[bryandaja]

Thanks for the book, it's nice getting a good read now and then.

To touch on what others have said. Yes, undercutting, capacity dumping, and competition be it small or drastic are inevitable in this game.  Myself and stephen are dealing with the overcrowding of the world at present as fast as we can (if you were writing the code, i'm sure you'd appreciate the dramatic change it would take to rename most of the tables in the game, as this is what it takes to do it right).  I love hearing suggestions and putting them into the game when and as best i can, (well. most of them at least).  I work hard to fix bugs, dktc here is tireless in his struggles against multi's, and i know Stephen, Rick (hpscot08) and Daniel Doorgakant tend to work pretty hard to improve the game in their own ways and jobs.  We're working to make this game as fun as we can, with as much realism as is still fun.

Oh, and concerning the multiple .5's I have a solution which should drastically reduce the unrealistic .5's (it is not perfect however) present in the game.  It's simply too impractical to launch mid-age, and it's too mean at present to surprise everyone with a reset without a dramatic bug as a valid cause.

you worked on, coded? and administrated a different game?  this intrigues me.  i'd like to hear more about it, either here or probably better in pm or on gtalk.

AE is great (oh, and it's F-R-E-E!). The more I play it, the more I appreciate its logic and challenges. In my opinion there's no reason to complain about slashed prices.

[Air Elbonia]

Thanks for the book, it's nice getting a good read now and then.

To touch on what others have said. Yes, undercutting, capacity dumping, and competition be it small or drastic are inevitable in this game.  Myself and stephen are dealing with the overcrowding of the world at present as fast as we can (if you were writing the code, i'm sure you'd appreciate the dramatic change it would take to rename most of the tables in the game, as this is what it takes to do it right).  I love hearing suggestions and putting them into the game when and as best i can, (well. most of them at least).  I work hard to fix bugs, dktc here is tireless in his struggles against multi's, and i know Stephen, Rick (hpscot08) and Daniel Doorgakant tend to work pretty hard to improve the game in their own ways and jobs.  We're working to make this game as fun as we can, with as much realism as is still fun.

Oh, and concerning the multiple .5's I have a solution which should drastically reduce the unrealistic .5's (it is not perfect however) present in the game.  It's simply too impractical to launch mid-age, and it's too mean at present to surprise everyone with a reset without a dramatic bug as a valid cause.

you worked on, coded? and administrated a different game?  this intrigues me.  i'd like to hear more about it, either here or probably better in pm or on gtalk.

AE is great (oh, and it's F-R-E-E!). The more I play it, the more I appreciate its logic and challenges. In my opinion there's no reason to complain about slashed prices.

AE or AM? (i had to ask sooner or later)

[pTr]

I'm one of those players that slash the price of tickets dramatically, and personally, I find nothing wrong with it. I'm not killing my own profit at all, I'll still making the same amount of money flying at 40-90(almost the same), what I am doing is, driving out competition. As far as I can see, there aren't any anti-trust matter going on here in AM, so I don't see anything wrong with me trying(would never happen) to monopolized the hubs I am in. Destroying the route profit for other? Sure, why not? They are all competitors, the less they get, the better for me. So, since AM is a democracy, so, yes, you have to right to express what you think, but I, also have to right to defend what I believe in.

[Dora]

This is my second round in AM. What I have concluded about the method of playing is that the faster you cut your throat, the more cash you will have.
In short, your goal is to reach 1 euro (or someone may think of free tickets) faster than any of your competitors.
Desperated? Life is tough...just enjoy it.

[dktc]

AE is great (oh, and it's F-R-E-E!). The more I play it, the more I appreciate its logic and challenges. In my opinion there's no reason to complain about slashed prices.

AE or AM? (i had to ask sooner or later)

Yes, this is the third post you talk about AE instead of AM :wink:
If you are looking for the forum for AE, you are at the wrong place. If you are talking about AM.... forget about AE. We are much better

[Jps]

AE... LIKE WHAT? There's about 30 airports in South America?!?  :shock:


Another complaint...

[Armygrognard]

I'm not trying to kill the game. I'm just a 13 year old kid playing after H/W is over.

 

Don't let 'em get you down.  This IS Airline MOGUL, not airline sissy!    

[Triple_7]

Price slashing can work in some cases...But driving out the competition doesn't always work since theres many dead accounts or people who only log in once a week.  This game runs for quite a long time on one round.  When people already have multiple €1 routes it drives not only the competition away but also players who were enjoying the game.  8 more years to go and its not looking to promising by then.  If you could base hubs in more then just the continent you started on it would actually improve the situation some since some continents are not worth being stuck in the whole round driving everyone to crowd Europe, USA, and Asia.  I wouldn't mind having a base in Africa, Australia, and maybe even South America.  But limited to bases only in the US and therefor limited to how far an aircraft can go.  Alliance hubs can be used but by the time most are ready to expand that far either theres no more gates to find or the alliance quota is already filled for that airport.  Would greatly improve things to be able to spread out some.  

A lot of the problem right now is simply to many people and not enough good airports to base out of.  I read somewhere about the possibility of multiple worlds.  This would help a lot as well just so theres a limit on the number of players per world so as not to have everyone playing 3 worlds running it to the same overcrowding problem there is now.  Will be interesting to see how it works out if it happens.  Right now theres 2087 airports...a lot of which are not worth making a base in...and theres 1892 players.  Some are just dead accounts from people who probably got bored or tired of the game and left without deleting.  Thats a lot of gates and routes that could be used.  Or theres people who set up and don't plan on logging in for several years.  This also takes up gates and routes...

A virtual airline I'm with has a good policy.  If you don't file a Pirep in 30 days your account automatically goes bye bye thanks to coding.   Unless you let an admin know you need a break and they will put you on a Leave Of Absence meaning your account will still be there when you return.  This comes in handy a lot if you take long trips or your computer has major issues.  Or in my last case I spent 3 weeks in Taiwan and came home to a computer that melted down later that day :oops:  Something like this would reduce the number of dead accounts dramatically.  If someone decided to set up a ton of routes in the beginning then not come back till the end they are not really an active player.  Whats the point in them having 50 gates if they are just going to let the account sit for a month or two.  Its gates and routes an active player could be using instead of these airports that are completely out of gates all together.  Something to think about.  Theres enough active players to keep the game going full force.  Might make the people mad when they return but they shouldn't have let the account set for 2 months without a valid reason.  

you worked on, coded? and administrated a different game? this intrigues me. i'd like to hear more about it, either here or probably better in pm or on gtalk.

It was awhile back, I was in a Vocational school class back in high school...most of it was graphic design but some of us got into HTML and making our own sites.  A couple of us set up a game much like this for extra credit.  Was pretty basic and didn't think it would take on the life it did.  Highest active players ever was about 250.  Not many but for just a simple extra credit project it was kind of a shock.  It was also a pricing game involving a market situation.  But there was to many people who would come in and even go into the negatives just to drive everyone out of the game...essentially just a troll looking to cause problems as with all games.  Got to the point where we would have to ban someone almost every day.  But we had a rule involving fair pricing.  Say the market was high...like $500.  You could drop your prices to control that market...but you couldn't just slap $5 price on it and take it over completely.  Had to base it on the market and how high the competition was at the time.  Sometimes prices would go up, other times they would go down.  Kept the price wars under control and didn't cause our regular players to just pack up and leave because of the price killing.  People found dropping prices down to pathetic levels were questioned and usually banned.  It keeps the game going without one person wiping everyone out.  If it was this game and the market would allow for 15 frequencies and still turn a nice profit...one person could not come in and take 10 of them.  Real airlines go for the highest profit the market will allow.  Not have a ticket price of $50 in a market where even with the competition would allow a $750 price.  Just doesn't add up.  If they did we would all be able to go from LAX-TPE for 20 bucks.  Thing with the real world and the game is the real world its about airline reputation instead of who has the lowest price.  

Wondering about how the price system is set up right now.  If theres 20 frequencies on the route for €500...someone comes in and puts a 2 frequency in for €50.  The load factor for the others is now 0%.  I found out in the SEA case I had to drop my prices down from €500 to €50 just to get 100% load...but if I wanted to go higher to say €51 I would get a 0% load again.  Even though the lowest price is €50 for 2 frequencies theres still a majority at €500+.  Therefore I should be able to set a price somewhere in the middle and still get a full load.  Not drop it to the same level as the lowest just to get ANY load.  Code glitch or something.  Should be able to at least get SOME load with a higher price.

We ended up keeping the game going for about 2 years and closed it down simply because of bored with it and also to many people cheating through it and upsetting the rest of the players.  Its been at least a year since that ended and I haven't messed with codes since.  I was setting up my own personal website about that time and lost everything before I could get it to the net thanks to a computer melt down.  Since then I haven't been interested in coding or anything to do with it.  Theres not enough time left in my day with work to sit and mess with it again.  Lost many hundred hours of work to that old computer, and thats not the first time something has destroyed weeks worth of work.  Kinda drove me away from working with code and I've forgotten a lot of it.  My mind is now filled more with building codes then HTML codes :?

[dktc]

Got to the point where we would have to ban someone almost every day.

We are banning people everyday, not even "almost" (which explains my mood at times).
Some days, I would be sitting in front of my computer and ban users for hours. People complain about editing routes, ...

[Triple_7]

Your dealing with about 7 times the people too :wink:

Would be nice to have a button to update all routes the highest ticket price possible that can still pull a 100% load though  Would save countless minutes

0.5 changes...wouldn't introduce them in the middle either...but fresh surprises at the beginning of a new round are what make games like this interesting and keep it challenging.  Someone gets mad because they cant make an aircraft do 30 0.5s then thats their problem.  Limiting it to one per aircraft would make it even better since it would be realistic...and people wouldn't fly to the top so incredibly fast :shock: