Airline Mogul Forum
Airline Mogul => Game Strategy => Topic started by: skywaker9 on February 20, 2009, 02:11:59 am
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Seriously, people, multifreqing just ruins the game for all of us. Its annoying and its also not in your best interest. Oh and if you keep dumping low fares on routes where there is limited competition, past a certain point it doesn't matter because I can charge above you at 1 feq. and the same plane and STILL fill it....
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You are not talking about the crazy multifreqs in W350 are you? LAX-SAN LAX-LAS are insane, some people have 3 frequencies and that is driving the profits down.
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That is indeed what I am talking about. I almost have to laugh at one of my main competitor in SAN, who has more planes and flights but less capacity and is worth a lot less because he/she is an idiot. SAN-LAX is literally my least profitable route in the entire system and SAN-LAS is just behind that. I make more $ flying a .5 frequency on SAN-Catalina than those flights....
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The Stupidity of MultiFreq is that we're discussing how stupid it is to be flying with a freq of more then 1.......
We should be here blasting people who have hundreds of 1 freq flights......
Multi Frequency flights SHOULD be huge cash cows......
The only way this isn't true is if a Frequency here isn't what I think it is....
I see a Frequency as meaning a flight...therefore a Freq of 1, is a roundtrip...whereas a Freq of 0.5 is a one-way trip......
Which brings me to my Biggest issue here.....0.5 Flights should be losing Buckets of money. Airlines don't Fly one-way flights.....Except to Victorville. Because ANY money made on the actual Revenue flight will be immediatly lost by the fact that the thing has to fly BACK to it's origination EMPTY....
In my Opinion .5 Freqs need to be totally removed from th game or Seriously reworked so they go from raking in cash to losing mass quantities of it
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Hmmm... I always saw 0.5 freq flights as "what can this plane do in a 24 hour period". In other words, for long haul I may only be able to fit two 0.5's in a day. So I do LHR-BGI, then BGI-CDG in 1 day. Tomorrow is the reverse.
For short hauls, I may do a full day of round trips, but I may have a route that is more profitable as one way, so that might be my last flight of the day to overnight at my out station, before returning the next morning. Make sense?
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This should how 0.5 routes work.
Take this example, each letter is an airport:
Day One
A>B
B>C
C>B
B>D
D>B
Day Two (reverse)
B>D
D>B
B>C
C>B
B>A
You can see the daily frequencies are:
B A - 0.5
B C - 1
B D - 1
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Multi Frequency flights SHOULD be huge cash cows......
Reason? More supply leads to higher price??
Which brings me to my Biggest issue here.....0.5 Flights should be losing Buckets of money. Airlines don't Fly one-way flights.....Except to Victorville. Because ANY money made on the actual Revenue flight will be immediatly lost by the fact that the thing has to fly BACK to it's origination EMPTY....
In my Opinion .5 Freqs need to be totally removed from th game or Seriously reworked so they go from raking in cash to losing mass quantities of it
In reality, airlines fly TONS of one-ways. If a plane goes
A->B->C->D->E->A, or
A->B->C->D on one day then D->C->B->A the next,
it would have flying one-ways.
Teleporting is prohibited by the script.
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Perhaps sending a friendly PM to your competitor will show him/her the light?
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For example...
Hello,
Please re-consider your strategy. Please read this thread on the forum...
http://stephenm.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=9558.0
Thank you.
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Quick question kinda off topic: I've never had two bases before, but will soon be opening one. If I want to fly routes out of my new base, will those planes also be available to fly out of my original base?
For instance, if Plane 1 flys out of Airport B to Airport C on a 1 frequency flight, would it then be able to fly from Airport A to Airport D, providing it still has enough hours?
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Yes but the best strategy is to "base" your aircraft at one of your bases. I use the "Fleet" system to manage these. For example, in PW 350 I have my planes split between PDX, SAN and Mexico City-based. Makes assigning them easier....
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Just use logic to work out if a plane could do a certain route. Your plane can't teleport to another airport.
Take the following examples
Base 1>A
Base 2>A
Base 2>B
This works because the plane can get to Base 2 via airport A.
Base 1>A
Base 1>Base 2
Base 2>B
This works because there is a direct flight between bases.
Base 1>A
Base 2>B
This does not work, because the plane would need to teleport.
Although, you should consider basing aircraft at an airport, as it makes it easier to change around flights (a connecting flight, like Base 1>A in the first example, can't be ended until all flights which depend on it are also stopped).
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Alright, I get it now. Thanks for the help.
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Yes but the best strategy is to "base" your aircraft at one of your bases. I use the "Fleet" system to manage these. For example, in PW 350 I have my planes split between PDX, SAN and Mexico City-based. Makes assigning them easier....
That's a matter of personal taste, really. I often double- or even triple-base airplanes whenever I can, and whenever it fills up the airplane hours to just under 24.
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Yes but the best strategy is to "base" your aircraft at one of your bases. I use the "Fleet" system to manage these. For example, in PW 350 I have my planes split between PDX, SAN and Mexico City-based. Makes assigning them easier....
You must have a headache doing that when its that time to replace/upgrade your airplanes especially if you've got a fairly large fleet to manage, not to mention the lag if you're unfortunate enough.
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OK, here we go, this is the type of stupidity that is ruining the routes for all.
LAX-SFO
Airline 1 Vickers-Armstrongs Nene-Viking 10 €150
Airline 2 BAC 111-400 2 €170
Airline 3 Boeing 727-100 3 €174
Airline 4 Potez 841 5 €125
Airline 5 Fokker F27-400 3 €145
Airline 6 Tupolev Tu-114 2.5 €175
*edited by dktc: please don't accused your fellow players of being stupid ;)
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So were playing this game where the goal is to build an airline and compete with other airlines. Now someone has come in and gone against the grain of the established players.
You gonna try and Laker these people out? or are you going to adapt to the changing market and deal with it??
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If everybody adapts to the actions of those few that are doing the multi-freqs, there would be complete insanity.
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I know what everyone's talking about. I'm gone for two days and 25 of my routes are now in the low 40% from an airline running +6 frequencies and dropping fare to less than $50.
My question is what is more gamey/exploitive? Is running many 1 frequency routes exploiting the engine or is running higher frequency routes exploitive? Or is neither exploitive? And if that's the case, Fitch is right. I'll just have to deal with it, or focus on my other world instead. Because setting back 20+ routes to a profitable status is not in my idea of fun.
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Its a valid strategy. Its also a stupid one. My main competitor at two of my hubs (the one I call a "Stalker airline" in another thread) is running 2 or 3 freqs on a number of routes. The result is mostly annoying for me but disastrous for them. I was at about maybe $50M in value above when I first started competing, now I am about $800M more valuable and the gap is increasing every day even though I only carry 3k more passengers. Of course it doesn't help that they lease a lot of their planes while I own all of mine but that's another topic...
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In terms of this particular sim, multi-frequency routes are mainly used only to reduce competition (if you can get people to drop routes, which most of the time does not occur or to hog gates).
One thing people must remember is that real life airlines generally do not run very high multi-frequency routes with the same aircraft. For example, Southwest runs 20+ or whatever daily flights between DAL and HOU. However, these are generally flown by different airplanes. While they may have 20 daily flight frequencies between these two airports, this does not mean that one airplane flies all of these routes, or even 2 fly 10 each.
Most airlines which fly into larger airports would run what (in the sim) would be considered a one way flight. For example (and very simplified).... Plane A starts in DAL and flies to HOU.... Plane B starts in HOU and flies to DAL (this would not be considered a round-trip for an idividual plane). Plane A then flies to LAS from HOU. Plane B flies to LAS from DAL. Plane A then flies from LAS to DAL and Plane B flies from LAS to HOU, and you do it again the next day.
If you follow the logic, even though the planes technically are not flying round trip (back and forth), they cover the same logic just by using one way flights.....
Sorry if this is cofusing, I think i confused myself just typing this.. haha
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Its a valid strategy. Its also a stupid one. My main competitor at two of my hubs (the one I call a "Stalker airline" in another thread) is running 2 or 3 freqs on a number of routes. The result is mostly annoying for me but disastrous for them. I was at about maybe $50M in value above when I first started competing, now I am about $800M more valuable and the gap is increasing every day even though I only carry 3k more passengers. Of course it doesn't help that they lease a lot of their planes while I own all of mine but that's another topic...
So then why complain about your competitor doing multiple frequencies? Obviously their business plan isn't as strong as your's. You can eventually turn back around and put a massive plane on the route (with multiple frequencies) and really drop their profits.
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Fly to airports with less pax. There would be less competition or no competition. Don't care about this airline with multrifreqs he earns not enough money to more expand and to replace planes, the maintainance expenses for his old planes will overrun his earnigs.
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So in the end, what nets more money? Which is more profitable? A multifrequency or a single frequency?
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That is a bit of a trick question. Almost always, putting another flight on the same route (multifrequency) will make you more profit on that route. However, this is often only by a small amount. You can usually make more profit by doing two flights to different cities rather than two flights to one city. For example, you might make $50,000 on a 1x flight or $65,000 on a 2x flight. If you were to do a 1x and another 1x, you could make $100,000.
That said, if you have a sufficiently large airline that you are unable to find routes (or time to find routes) for all your planes, it may be more profitable to actually increase the frequency of flights. Rather than having planes sitting around doing nothing, you could have planes doing 2x routes and making marginally more money.
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Sorry to pop in here but I have a question related to this thread.
So then, in theory according to what is being said, routes with a frequency of .5 would be the most profitable then right? Because two different cities at .5 would yield more than 1 city with 1.0...
(Sorry, curious noobs like me need to be educated)
8)
Mr. Gisa ^^
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Yes. 0.5 frequency is more profitable. However, you can only do two per aircraft, so you will need to do a combination of 0.5 and 1 to fully use the aircraft's hours.
On a slightly different note, it is also more profitable to use smaller aircraft, as this has the same effect of having a smaller number of seats.
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Thanks for the answer CHR. Can I ask one more question? You said you can only do two per aircraft? Is this because planes can't *teleport* or is it a rule?
8)
Mr. Gisa ^^
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In short, it is because the aircraft can't teleport.
The 0.5 route in real life would be done at the beginning/end of day, there is a more detailed explanation here: http://stephenm.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=9747.msg88829#msg88829 (http://stephenm.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=9747.msg88839#msg88839).
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There is possibility to set more 0,5 routes to one plane. The other routes must be set from other hub to the same airports.
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I don't see the problem... If I want to fly a frequency of 3 or 4 because it's more realistic... I'll fly it. You can jump on your head all you want.
If you don't like it, think of a way to change my mind.
Competition is a big factor in the game and if you can't handle it, fly a different route.
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That's true, you can set up more than one 0.5 if you change bases. I just usually don't changes bases to avoid complications when changing aircraft.
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TY again CHR.
I might be new, but Dasha, it's inefficient to run at 3-4 frequencies. You could still make a profit out of it (and a lot of enemies lol) but if money is how you expand and make more money, then you are limiting yourself. Worse, some of the big boys have the money, DOP and experience to deal with these types...
*Must get bigger...to survive in pond*
Believe me, I have one competitor who I'm thinking of going up against just out of spite (by expanding to HIS hubs and setting up multifrequencing on HIS routes) but he's bigger than me for now. Now, I must be patient...
Still, if operating like real life floats your boat, go for it. I aim for a mix between the two. And I can tell you that on one flight from Incheon to Busan (where there were 3 daily flights) the plane was maybe 15% filled and they had already combined the flight with another airline to try to save money. Different circumstance I know, but I do see the realism in the business model that supply affects demand which therefore affects profits.
8)
Gisa ^^
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It's a valid but stupid strategy. Obviously, most of the people that do 10-frequency flights here don't understand the concept of opportunity cost. Or supply and demand for that matter.
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I understand people saying it is best to have one frequency per day on a route as this will generate the most money, but why is the game set up this way. On short haul flights with a demand of say 1000 people unless you schedule one A380 to do this 300 mile flight which would be unprofitable why can't you schedule 5 A321s of 180 capacity with the same price as 1 A321 a day on that route. I understand more competition will reduce the price but you are not competing with yourself for passengers and if the supply is lower than the demand then why should the price need to be lowered.
I am in a game in 1920 and the amount of passengers is at 21st century levels with 14 seater aircraft. The demand is way over the supply by 100 or 1000 times yet with 2 flights I have to slash the price to get 100% load factor and the same profit as one flight. It seems crazy with 28 seat supply and over 1000 passenger demand it shouldn't make a difference on the price for one or two flights.
It isn't very realistic for everyone just to have one flight a day to each destination. Long haul maybe short haul definatly not. Look at the London - New York route with over 30 flights a day between them and prices aren't £2.50 but probably would be on this game play.
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I agree with Fitch. In the real world, one should be able to fly more than 1 frequency daily between for example OSL-ARN. If you try more they aren't profitable. 2 freqencies may bring in a little 5 percent more cash, while 3 will make less than 1. What's the deal?
Another example: there are about 20 daily roundtrips between OSL-BGO flown by SAS and Norwegian, but in AM there is only room for 2 or 3, if flown by different flights/airlines.
In this case, it would also be nice with a transfer system, as I know people tend to travel domestic from the smallest airport, via the larger one to the largest, or directly to the largest. I doubt that it's only in Norway this is the case.
Thanks
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I think you've got part of it as to why multi-freq's don't work right. Passengers do not have connecting flights, so the amount of passengers is actually less than the numbers indicate. One other thing that may help is the reduction in hubs that are allowed for our home regions along with a transfer system. Once AM passengers can have that connecting flight through ORD so they can get from IAD to MSP then there really won't be a need for airlines to have up to five hubs in their home region. So perhaps at that point the number of domestic hubs allowed could be limited somehow. Right now such a limit wouldn't work. We need a transfer system first.
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Hopefully it will work out for everyone at last:P
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It's a valid but stupid strategy. Obviously, most of the people that do 10-frequency flights here don't understand the concept of opportunity cost. Or supply and demand for that matter.
There are multiple situations in which having 2, 3 or more frequencies would make for a both valid and smart strategy. If I have a plane flying AMS-LHR when 5 years into a round, and the plane has 3 hours left, why not strengthen my position on that route? I might make a few less €'s compared to if I created a second route to another airport (a route that I would probably already be flying), but if I can't create a new route because I'm already flying to all nearby airports, why not maximize my airplane's potential and make some extra cash? Besides, if I'm paying for 10 slots while not using 9 of them, I might as well pay for 10 and not use 8 of them.
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Hehehe, what is the best way to push your competitors out of the market? 8)
What plane, how many frequencies?
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There is little point in trying to push someone out of a market using multi frequencies.
Firstly, it is true that you will hurt them a little, but you will hurt yourself a lot more.
Secondly, if you do manage to push them off a route, they can just set up a route to a different airport, and return to the initial route once you have stopped the multi-frequency.
However, if you still want to push people off a route, you need to maximise the number of seats you dump on the route. You could do this by using a really big aircraft, or using multi-frequencies, or a bit of both.
If it is a short haul route, try to find a plane with a really low range, because they will be cheaper, then put on lots of multi-frequencies.
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I've always wondered; does putting a plane with, say, 50 seats on a route with 3x frequency have the same effect as putting a 150-seater with 1x freq?
I feel like a noob :-[ :lol:
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just saw this thread and what do I think?
(http://members.roadfly.org/viv/AwJeezNotThisSheetAgain1.jpg)
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Ali,
Constructive debate on this topic is permitted. If you have nothing to contribute to the thread, there is no need to make a post.