Airline Mogul Forum
Non-Airline Mogul => General Chat => Topic started by: Vamerica on April 03, 2008, 12:42:34 am
-
(http://usagolfandtravel.com/images/Aloha%20Airlines.jpg)
-
I know they filed for Chapter 11, but did they have to cease all operations?
-
The closing of them was because of gas prices. Gas prices are killing every airline in america.
-
I know they filed for Chapter 11, but did they have to cease all operations?
AFAIK they ceased all passenger operations 31rd March. Cargo biz will go on until others will provide this (mainly inter-island postal service).
-
ATA has anounced closure too :shock:
-
ATA lost all their Reach troop flights and with todays fuel prices running those old L1011's and DC10's isnt viable for them, shame, another great airline lost.
-
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/ATA_Airlines_logo_2001.png)
-
now, who next?
-
ATA lost all their Reach troop flights and with todays fuel prices running those old L1011's and DC10's isnt viable for them, shame, another great airline lost.
Shame for the short haul fleet too those 738's will hopefully go to a good airline :roll:
-
now, who next?
Oh i think Kalitta Air cargo will be next cause they only operate the 741 and 742 and there so fuel thirsty.
-
I say the airlines that wont be going away are(United States Airlines)
United
American
US Airways
Delta
Virgin America(they have so much baking from Virgin Group, so i say there safe)
NWA(is meant to merge soon, i think)
Continental(also is merging soon)
South West(there the fastest airline growing in america)
ON THE EDGE...
I say Fronter, they bight be able to stay
WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHTS...
on Alaska and Horizon(horizon is a small commuter of Alaska, so there like the same).
-
United have grounded all there 777's (52) for some safety thing so i dont think they will go or unless they still arnt making a profit :roll:
-
your getting this all from Airliners.net
well that means there paying less gas toe.
-
im not getting all this from Anet and yed thats a good point but theyll be back soon
-
yes.
one question. As I knew, ATA was now owned SouthWest
-
yes.
one question. As I knew, ATA was now owned SouthWest
what? :?
-
as i knew, SouthWest Airlines(SWA) bought out ATA a couple years ago. Even there Inflight Magazine for SouthWest says "Vacation Package City Service Operated By ATA Airlines" or "Service Operated By ATA Airlines"
-
ow ya...
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Aloha-Airlines/Boeing-737-282-Adv/1341473&photo_nr=59&prev_id=1341474&next_id=1341470&size=L
-
thats probably the last time youll see them in that good condition :(
-
well, they will get sold or scraped. I wish there sold. I hate to see a 737-200 be scraped.
-
same but its most likely they will
-
depends
-
how many airlines do you know that are buying 732's?
-
airlines in S. America use 737-200's. Some small airlines in Canada. And even some in europe ans africa.
-
i just doubt it
-
well
-
.....
-
so any thoughts on Alaska and horizon.
-
nope not really
-
well do you think any European airline is going to file chap. 11?
-
yep palmair and EAL or EAC they are basicly the same company but they only operate 732's and dont have cash to buy new planes so sadly there will soon be an ending
-
i see.
-
Chapter 11 is actually a section of the US Bankruptcy Code, and a rather unusual one when you look at how other nations have traditionally handled insolvencies. I believe that there is now a European version of Chapter 11, but don't quote me on that. As for the shutting down operations, if you look back at history when airlines have filed for Chapter 11 they will almost always bring all their aircraft back to their base of operations to protect them from creditors seizing them at the out stations before the filing is official. Braniff did this both times, Continental did it both times, Pan Am did it, Eastern did it - it is simply an asset protection move. I believe if we looked at the recent filings you don't see this pattern as the airlines are filing much earlier than they used to (Chap. 11 has lost it's stigma) and since the aircraft can't be seized if they are current on their payments, it is unnecessary. The standard pattern has been to shut down for a couple of days, then to begin limited operations again, focusing on only your most profitable routes and aircraft. There are cases however where the Chapter 11 morphs into a Chapter 7 liquidation filing, a la Eastern, and that is when the assets get sold and the company simply ceases to exist. But almost always, they will try to reorganize under Chapter 11 first.
ATA was not owned by Southwest but rather was working as an affiliate to fly the routes, mainly Hawaiian, that Southwest wasn't ready to undertake on their own. They also handled the charters and vacation packages for SW.
-
QANTAS BETTER NOT DIE!!! :lol:
but im not sure about their rediculously expensive prices...
$2199 to LAX from Melbourne on special
V Australia - Melbourne to LAX via SYD -$1200 on special
-
im just hoping IR will take up those 732's :lol:
-
now, who next?
Well, there are some I would keep an eye on:
Europe:
Alitalia
South America:
Maybe TAM?
North America:
Freedom Airlines? Delta has announced to cancel their contract for 34 of their 50 seaters (representing about 75% of Freedom Airline's fleet) in May. Maybe its parent company MESA(? can't remember) will shut down their subsidiaries business to protect themselves.
Others may be affected, too, as Lufthansa's officials said somewhere that their contracts "are flexible". If traffic volume is at a kind of peak now (at least in the Western World by some analysts) there will definetly die other airlines within the second quarter of this year.
Chapter 11 is actually a section of the US Bankruptcy Code, and a rather unusual one when you look at how other nations have traditionally handled insolvencies. I believe that there is now a European version of Chapter 11, but don't quote me on that.
There is indeed something like that in Germany (at least) but I dont know if this is handled the same as Chapter 11.
ATA was not owned by Southwest but rather was working as an affiliate to fly the routes, mainly Hawaiian, that Southwest wasn't ready to undertake on their own. They also handled the charters and vacation packages for SW.
You are right. One or two years ago Southwest passed about $20M to ATA receiving gate slots from them in return. ATA was planned to fly longer international routes (e.g. Cancun) on behalf of Southwest for the next year. AFAIK Southwest does not have international routes (at least no long-hauls).
-
Looking at the latest news we're getting on the Alitalia - AirFrance/KLM takeover, it's not going to happen soon. Italian unions don't bow down easily, so it seems, and AirFrance/KLM looks like it's getting tired of the entire takeover. Also, Berlusconi being not-so-happy about losing an Italian icon, especially one that should have a big presence in Milan (IIRC, could be Rome but I forgot) seeing as that's kind of his favourite city, means Alitalia might not disappear that quick.
-
Skybus Airlines has gone under.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Skybus-Airlines/Airbus-A319-112/1336841
-
Yeah, just read it :cry:
-
i herd it last night on the news
-
they have a really nice livery
-
why is there suddenly a increase of airlines shutting down? 10 going to 2-3 weeks is horrendous!
-
Fuel Expenses have risin :?
-
Personally, I think Alaska will be fine, They have a good niche, Some say, and I am not sure I believe it but it could happen, SWA might be in trouble with the FAA fines. But they are pretty darn strong so they should recover.
Beerchaser
-
SWA will probably not go file chap. 11. They are safe.
-
To be honest I'm not surprised about Skybus..
Watch Qantas (Jetonnect) in NZ here.
-
now, who next?
Oh i think Kalitta Air cargo will be next cause they only operate the 741 and 742 and there so fuel thirsty.
I think not, there is a world wide demand for cargo, especially odd sized and heavy cargo, so I think Kalitta will be around for a good while.
Also, cargo flights differs from PAX flights in a way, no cargo no flight no fuel expense, PAX with low loads need to go anyway, and it's more or less cargo that helps the flight break even on PAX routes as well. KLM has used that fact successfully for many years with their fleet of combo 747's, but even on a full pax 747 there is still room for a lot of small sized cargo.
-
I think not, there is a world wide demand for cargo, especially odd sized and heavy cargo, so I think Kalitta will be around for a good while.
Also, cargo flights differs from PAX flights in a way, no cargo no flight no fuel expense, PAX with low loads need to go anyway, and it's more or less cargo that helps the flight break even on PAX routes as well. KLM has used that fact successfully for many years with their fleet of combo 747's, but even on a full pax 747 there is still room for a lot of small sized cargo.
Although I agree to your theory I have heard/read somewhere (can't remember where) that cargo airlines complain about more cargo being moved by ships (significantly lower costs but longer shipment times). Especially cargo heading for Asia is pretty cheap by ship. Many ships come overloaded from Asia to Europe but go almost empty back.
-
I think not, there is a world wide demand for cargo, especially odd sized and heavy cargo, so I think Kalitta will be around for a good while.
Also, cargo flights differs from PAX flights in a way, no cargo no flight no fuel expense, PAX with low loads need to go anyway, and it's more or less cargo that helps the flight break even on PAX routes as well. KLM has used that fact successfully for many years with their fleet of combo 747's, but even on a full pax 747 there is still room for a lot of small sized cargo.
Although I agree to your theory I have heard/read somewhere (can't remember where) that cargo airlines complain about more cargo being moved by ships (significantly lower costs but longer shipment times). Especially cargo heading for Asia is pretty cheap by ship. Many ships come overloaded from Asia to Europe but go almost empty back.
UPS, FEDEX, DHL, and all the others are still making out as our world becomes faster paced still. The idea of gotta be there by 10AM still holds true with most big business. The smaller cargo carriers probably will feel the economic strain of fuel prices though. The problem with pax load now, business travel is starting to dwindle now that technology has grown. Online video meetings are becoming more and more prevalent with rising ticket costs. Not to mention postal service has dropped significantly with the dawn of email. Pretty soon, the only people flying will be tourists.
Beerchaser
-
UPS, FEDEX, DHL, and all the others are still making out as our world becomes faster paced still. The idea of gotta be there by 10AM still holds true with most big business. The smaller cargo carriers probably will feel the economic strain of fuel prices though. The problem with pax load now, business travel is starting to dwindle now that technology has grown. Online video meetings are becoming more and more prevalent with rising ticket costs. Not to mention postal service has dropped significantly with the dawn of email. Pretty soon, the only people flying will be tourists.
Beerchaser
I dont think so. If you are selling products you definetly have to show the customer. The want to see and touch the real product. Therefore I need to travel. But I agree that my office is more or less "paperless" (at least in postal terms). I also agree on scheduled cargo. But if you ship bigger equipment (e.g. machines or fruits) companies use ships, trains or trucks more often.
Unfortunatly I heard some rumor about two other carriers that are in trouble. But those are still rumors. Time will tell. :wink:
-
AS is safe for now even though Virgin America and Jet Blue are starting up routes on the west coast of the US. I say that AS is safe because of their great partnership with national and international partners, some would say it is the best millage program over all for the States. Also not too many airlines off upgrades starting at $50, no fee for checked bags, more flights to California and Alaska, no fee for stand by day of flight and I'm sure a few others that I am missing. Other then bags not arriving at airports when I am landing I've not had any major issues with AS other then not enough flights to ORD but oh well can't have everything.
-
Coast Air ceased operations a little while ago because of pax load (on one route they were using a ATR 42 and only getting 1 pax per flight even thouhg they had cheap tickets!
-
AS is safe for now even though Virgin America and Jet Blue are starting up routes on the west coast of the US. I say that AS is safe because of their great partnership with national and international partners, some would say it is the best millage program over all for the States. Also not too many airlines off upgrades starting at $50, no fee for checked bags, more flights to California and Alaska, no fee for stand by day of flight and I'm sure a few others that I am missing. Other then bags not arriving at airports when I am landing I've not had any major issues with AS other then not enough flights to ORD but oh well can't have everything.
not to mention several hundred million in the bank. (I think htey have.... about 500 mill)
Virgin America is doing okay, but if they cant get their act togeather soon, they'll be next. SWA is the most profitable carrier in the Americas... they have 2 or 3 billion stocked up :lol:
I think we may even see a legacy go under.... some have very little cash piles.... However, UA looks like it has the most cash as a legacy.
-
I do believe US Airways needs to be watched...I heard that somebody bought out United, I'm looking to see if its true. Too many mergers right now to keep up with. American is doing fine, they grounded some MD80s a couple days ago to do so volunteer inspections and to avoid fines from the FAA. They're also removing them from their fleet little by little and having them replaced by the 737-800. I think they're doing fine.
I don't know about jetBlue though. Its in pretty deep debt with Airbus and DirecTV. Delta is removing certain routes from the Carib because of competition. Theres a new airline opening in May called Aerolíneas Dominicanas based in the Dominican Republic...like all the others that begin from the Dominican Republic, it wont last long.
-
Virgin America has too much backing from Virgin Group to file chap. 11.
-
I don't know about jetBlue though. Its in pretty deep debt with Airbus and DirecTV.
I think for the moment they are safe as Lufthansa invested $300M recently. Read this:
http://investor.jetblue.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=131045&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1106237&highlight=lufthansa
-
I don't know about jetBlue though. Its in pretty deep debt with Airbus and DirecTV.
I think for the moment they are safe as Lufthansa invested $300M recently. Read this:
http://investor.jetblue.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=131045&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1106237&highlight=lufthansa
Oh ok, if it wasn't for Lufthansa jetBlue would've only last probably until the end of this year maybe a little more maybe a little less.
-
Virgin America has too much backing from Virgin Group to file chap. 11.
Virgin America has no to little backing from the Virgin Group. None of the legacies have mergered yet...
Here are the "safest" legacy airlines in my opinion:
1. United (they have like 400 million in the bank)
2. NW (also have quite abit of $ in the bank)
3. CO (I remember seeing a report with them having 91 mill)
4. AA (right under CO)
5. DL (deep in debt, however they have alot of new planes)
6. US (dont now much about them, however they look like theyre are okayish
-
I'd add jetBlue to the list of airlines that aren't going anywhere.
-
now, who next?
NORTHWEST :(
The only reason ATA stayed afloat was their affiliation with Southwest.
-
God, this thread is awesome, kids talking about stuff they have no idea about :lol:
I can see Kalitta buying new aircraft rather than going out of buisness, there is always going to be a need for cargo, not so much pax.
Sam
-
there is always going to be a need for cargo, not so much pax.
Is there an echo in here? ;)
-
AirFrance/KLM just announced they are going to stop talks with Alitalia, because of the not-so-flexible Italian unions. So unless Berlusconi really has some banks coming out of his sleeve in a few days, add that one to your list.
-
now, who next?
NORTHWEST :(
The only reason ATA stayed afloat was their affiliation with Southwest.
Didnt Northwest merge with Delta?
-
AirFrance/KLM just announced they are going to stop talks with Alitalia, because of the not-so-flexible Italian unions. So unless Berlusconi really has some banks coming out of his sleeve in a few days, add that one to your list.
again?
I read in yesterday's paper (Le Devoir, Montréal, Apr.7) that the unions wanted back on the negociation table.
-
As far as I know, they had a deadline set on today with their old offer still standing, and I haven't heard of any new progressions in talks with the unions, so chances are it's not gonna happen and Berlusconi has to come to the rescue.
-
now, who next?
NORTHWEST :(
The only reason ATA stayed afloat was their affiliation with Southwest.
Didnt Northwest merge with Delta?
No. The merger fell apart when the pilot's unions couldn't come to an agreement for merging the seniority lists.
-
Oasis Hong Kong Airlines is ceasing operations today.
-
It must be the season for bankruptcy.
-
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/61/Oasis_Hong_Kong_Airlines_logo.jpg/250px-Oasis_Hong_Kong_Airlines_logo.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Oasis_Hong_Kong.jpeg/180px-Oasis_Hong_Kong.jpeg)
-
Damn, Oasis, love their livery :(
Short lived company, not even 2 years...
-
You'll going to have to get used to it :lol: Soon all will be bankrupt.. :twisted:
I bet Alitalia's next. :lol:
-
I hope Hong Kong Airlines and HKE are the next.
-
Well Ansett went bankrupt i think hmmmm three four years ago. Qantas planes are slowing detereorating, but will be refreshed. Hmm reminds me of Ansett. Jetstar, Virgin Blue (Budget Airlines) are still here and going well. Tiger airways here aswell but will soon cease. Qantas and Virgin have taken away staff from tiger....
Oh well.
Qantas is (i think) Slowly dying, to bad they're a good airline. (free food, comfort not to bad, entertainment, friendly staff, relatively quick service and the first airline to start and airline within an airline. How original. (Jetstar) I hate Jetstar! :evil:
-
Oasis Hong Kong Airlines is ceasing operations today.
Really? I just went to their website and it doesn't seem like it...
Their latest press release:
New appointments further strengthen Oasis Hong Kong Airlines sales force
Hong Kong, March 19, 2008
Oasis Hong Kong Airlines (Oasis) has appointed two industry veterans to further strengthen their sales team: Winnie Ma, Deputy General Sales Manager – Hong Kong & Southern China; and Esther Wang, Deputy General Manager – International Sales & Distribution.
I know thats March but how many airlines do you know of that actually post their "latest news" on the web...wait I may have contradicted myself there...
...
...
...
...
...no I didn't, if they were ceasing operations you'd think they'd tell us :lol: on the contrary, their reservation system appears to be undergoing "maintenance"...now I'm confused :(
-
It's true.
try this...
http://www.rthk.org.hk/rthk/news/englishnews/index_news.htm
-
One of their aircraft is currently at LGW, parked.
The aircraft will not be moving until they find out who's going to be paying for it to go back home.
Another airline lost...
-
The person wondering about alaska air, there is no way it is going out, Alaska Air runs a lot of cargo in alaska with it combi (1/2 cargo 1/2 people) and it is the only way to get to a lot of places in alaska, along with the main airline out of alaska (rents almost all of ANC (anchorage) and fairbanks airports) Also they just recenintaly bought a LOT of new aircraft
-
It's true.
try this...
http://www.rthk.org.hk/rthk/news/englishnews/index_news.htm
Well whatdya know, you're right! NOW the Oasis website says it...
Edit: here is the notice on the oasis website:
Notice to Passengers
It is with regret that Oasis Hong Kong Airlines announces that the airline has this morning applied to the Hong Kong Court to appoint a provisional liquidator. The Court has appointed Edward Middleton and Patrick Cowley of KPMG as the provisional liquidators, and they have assumed control of the airline with effect from 1400h HKG time today.
Our flight operations have been cancelled until further notice. The Provisional Liquidators are liaising with other airlines in order to help customers make alternate travel arrangements as quickly as possible.
-
One of their aircraft is currently at LGW, parked.
The aircraft will not be moving until they find out who's going to be paying for it to go back home.
Another airline lost...
that plane is backed to Hong Kong already
that means 4 planes now parked in HKIA
and one is still flying in Africa
-
I have seen an ATA aircraft (DC-10 or MD-11; was too far away) at LEJ today. Seemed that it had not moved since I saw it last Friday.
EDIT:
Have a look at this page.
http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html
If airlines will continue to cease operations (or to merge) at this speed we will probably have 70 airlines less beginning 2009 than at the end of 2007 :cry:
-
CX is helping again really nice of CX
-
CX is helping again really nice of CX
Although BA says that it is going to help Oasis' passengers too but actually all the flights were already full before BA announced that.
-
Frontier have now filed a chapter 11
-
now, who next?
NORTHWEST :(
The only reason ATA stayed afloat was their affiliation with Southwest.
Didnt Northwest merge with Delta?
No. The merger fell apart when the pilot's unions couldn't come to an agreement for merging the seniority lists.
Just happened to be scanning the news and the Wall Street Journal is now saying that the Delta-Northwest announcement could come Tuesday - even without the support of the pilot's unions :shock: Brings back thoughts of Pan Am-National.......
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120811358101510993.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
-
There are two Skyway Beeches sitting at the Beechcraft/Raytheon Maintence Hanger at RFD.... Its kinda ironic that just a year ago there were four ex Fly-I CRJ's sitting on the other side of th airport from these... The CRJ's went to OO and now operate as YX*
-
Frontier have now filed a chapter 11
Chapter 11 is a LONG way from a shutdown or Chapter 7.
The folks who own those very nice Airbii aren't going to be happy though...
But I believe Hampo was one of the two that got it right.... right now.. Pax, sexy but not good, Cargo decidedly not sexy, but a great place to be... (Okay for airline dorks, cargo is sexy also)
-
(Okay for airline dorks, cargo is sexy also)
I was just about to intervene- where else could you still see all those beautiful old birds?
But the list of bankruptcies sounds quite scary. Carriers like AZ better get some sense and save themselves!!!
-
The Death List: :twisted:
(in my opinion)
"major risk":
Express Jet
Mesa Aviation Group
Moderate to Major risk:
Silver Jet - I would think - maybe :P
Virgin America - At this point, however, this would meen SRB doesn't intervene
Frontier - I think they'll make it
Low Risk- But still at risk:
AA - But... that would probably Chap. 11
DL and NW ... seem to be maybe merging
UA and CO... "supposedly" are going to merge if DL/NW does
US ... no comment...
Air Tran ... it was said by the News that they may be in trouble...
Thats all I can think of... I dont know about in Europe other than Alitalia... Olympic will never fall becuase there owned by the government and there controlled by unions.... which happen to be "stronger" than the actual government
-
NW and DL merged, see my thread :D
-
EOS look like they're about to fold too
Southwests fuel bill for 08 is looking to be at the same amount as their profits too...
-
I knew it from the start: Alitalia was in the news today again. Seems that the elections brought Mr. Berlusconi into a better position to fight for is flag carrier.
Mentioned possibilities:
1. AF/KLM (still)
2. Aeroflot :shock:
3. Lufthansa (but possibly they are afraid of the unions)
Let's see how this thing will finally end. Two choices (in my opinion):
1. Shut down operations (can't really think of that)
2. Union power will be reduced and someone will take over this airline kicking "some" butts to keep at least some of the 20,000 jobs
-
It appears that the EC refused to permit another state loan for AZ until 2011.
AZ, glhf! :shock: