Airline Mogul Forum
Airline Mogul => General Chat => Topic started by: Air2000 on January 15, 2008, 02:19:06 pm
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm One Shiney New 747 or 2 Shiney DC-8's.
Has anybody got 747's already? would you reccomend flying medium cappacity on LH routes or High capacity on LH routes?
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depends what routes you have in mind. If you havnt planned new destinations or routes theres no point buying at all cause you need something to work towards. at the moment im working to buy a 747-200
but i'll be interested to see what the owners of the 742 have to say about the aircraft. any chance that you can tell us the routes you have put them on and the profits your getting out of those routes? of course, one for long haul and one for short haul
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I would choose none of them. In stead, get some nice medium range aircraft which are much cheaper and make more money.
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well i was thinking UK-US routes, maybe JFK, PHX. Ive already got
DC7 rotuing BHX - ATL on a .5 frequency
and BFS - ATL on a .5 frequency
my DC8 is curretnly flying
BHX-ORD .5
PMI-ORD .5
I wud imagine that 747's wud equal lower fares for passengers, to gain 100% load on e.g. BHX-JFK seats on a DC8 wud sell at E500, where as on a 747 tickets might sell at E350 to gain 100%
Ive got enough for a either a couple of DC8's (maybe 3 dc8s if i wait a little longer) or one 747 (either -100 or -200 - but for the routes i have in mind either varient would do)
Like MvH said, medium sized a/c would make more money
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I say get a whole bunch of F28s and bombard every airport within 700mi of Venice with them.
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For me, I'm planning a ultra continental route (from tehran to san francisco; dont ask, I just want to) and I can choose between the 707 and russian metal. I'm choosing the 742 because of the amount of passengers it can take, and not russian metal cause their cockpits look too complicated and ugly
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I say get a whole bunch of F28s and bombard every airport within 700mi of Venice with them.
some here have lives! :lol:
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and not russian metal cause their cockpits look too complicated and ugly
You don't have to fly them yourself :lol: :wink:
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For me, I'm planning a ultra continental route (from tehran to san francisco; dont ask, I just want to) and I can choose between the 707 and russian metal. I'm choosing the 742 because of the amount of passengers it can take, and not russian metal cause their cockpits look too complicated and ugly
Russian Metal is awsome!!!
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I hope you are comparing the Russian pre-glass cockpits with "Western" pre-glass cockpits? Because I'm sure flying a Trident would equally be as difficult as flying a TU-134.
And I am a fan of Russian craft too, they have character along with the more 1960s/70s British aircraft.
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not russian metal cause their cockpits look too complicated and ugly
hahaha
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I say get a whole bunch of F28s and bombard every airport within 700mi of Venice with them.
all good... but already most of the EU routes are over crowded, theres more money in LH
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I'll sell you a 742 for 499MM, so you can have one now.
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I have to say I disagree. You've hardly opened flights to the region from Venice. It's an easy 200k+ average per F28 which costs 1/10ths of a longhaul metal.
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all good... but already most of the EU routes are over crowded, theres more money in LH
I wish! The way this thing is going I only keep long haul routes for the prestige (as if :roll: ). And I have to let those big birds finish it off with some roundtrip to a nearby backwater town or other, otherwise there's no money to be seen.
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Aria its a nice idea with the F28 but be prepared to have airlines with bigger aircraft starting to become a pain. I have 727's competing on many of my 732 routes and even my BAC111-500's with all four of their extra seats are being attacked. Personally i am waiting for the A300 before i can attack those routes. What year is it out. As for longhaul i will tell you what my DC-10-10's earn when they start to arrive on Thursday. Will tell you on the Worldair forum because its a trade secret. :lol:
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The first production model, the A300B2, entered service in 1974. - Wiki.
I cannot advice any further as it ventures into my own trade secrets.
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Yes thanks for the information it will prove useful for the future.
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just to let you know i decided on DC-8s. (I got x3 DC8-20's)
and i will focus on opening new routres from the EU-US, and adding routes from existing US destinations to hubs that are not currently dircectly linked.
And introducing long haul flights from Venice to North America.
I disagree with mg35pt, thres less over crowding on LH routes at the moment, routes dont suddenly jump from 95-100% load to 5% with the increasing european network airlines expanding there bases and routes. Especially with bigger jets such as the 727-200 which can do the routes cheaper with a higher frequency
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I disagree with mg35pt, thres less over crowding on LH routes at the moment, routes dont suddenly jump from 95-100% load to 5% with the increasing european network airlines expanding there bases and routes. Especially with bigger jets such as the 727-200 which can do the routes cheaper with a higher frequency
Although not as extreme, I was running a 1-freq, 120-seat Tu-114 on a US-Europe route (300k to 300k). Someone brings on a 0.5 freq, 20-seat 737 BBJ, and it dropped my LF by 20%. I personally think the DOP/LF algorithm needs a little more tweaking.
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I hope you are comparing the Russian pre-glass cockpits with "Western" pre-glass cockpits? Because I'm sure flying a Trident would equally be as difficult as flying a TU-134.
And I am a fan of Russian craft too, they have character along with the more 1960s/70s British aircraft.
not to mention that you never get hot in the cockpit because there is ALWAYS one fan each for the pilot, co-pilot, navigator, radio operator and any other cockpit crew :D
gotta love russian planes, they do have a hell of alot of character....
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Personally I am quite happy with my DC-8-55, I have it flying to LGW from two of my hubs and it's bringing in 424K, and I just placed an order for my second one last night.
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I disagree with mg35pt, thres less over crowding on LH routes at the moment, routes dont suddenly jump from 95-100% load to 5% with the increasing european network airlines expanding there bases and routes. Especially with bigger jets such as the 727-200 which can do the routes cheaper with a higher frequency
Although not as extreme, I was running a 1-freq, 120-seat Tu-114 on a US-Europe route (300k to 300k). Someone brings on a 0.5 freq, 20-seat 737 BBJ, and it dropped my LF by 20%. I personally think the DOP/LF algorithm needs a little more tweaking.
which is why i always think... what the hell is the point in making the 737-200bbj available? if this is supposed to be AIRLINE mogul... why have Bizz Jets available, why not just AIRLINERS
Btw ive ordered 2 more DC8-20's, so when they get delivered it will bring my DC8 fleet to 6!
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some airlines do operate all-biz config airplanes
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some airlines do operate all-biz config airplanes
very,very few!
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And that is a thing of the last few years really. Not of the 70's
Waerth
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some airlines do operate all-biz config airplanes
EOS MaxJet (RIP MAXJET) and Silverjet all come out pretty recently! were in the 70's now!
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And that is a thing of the last few years really. Not of the 70's
Waerth
LOL I agree with that one. but still I think there are some other more important problems to be addressed than that one, don't you think?
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Ok, not exactly a airline operating a BBJ, but rather one operating a Gulfstream I in reality (Idk when though). It's called Birmingham Executive, and according to "The Illustrated Directory of Modern Commercial Aircraft" by Gunter Endres, they used them on schedualed services regularly. Note that these planes are considered commercial aircraft too. I recall that Delta had a branch of themselves called Delta Select. I think they operated bizjets, though that was more for chartering a bizjet. I'm not too sure on this one. Note we also have Privateair who operates CJ319s. As for the 1970s argument? Well, look at it like this, did we have the same regulations we had in the 1950s? No, also, most of the aircraft at the time doubled in as biz planes, though they were more widespread amongst both sides. As Bizjets were introduced, it was found unfeasable for most airlines to use these as regular airliners, though there are a few airlines that operate these on routes. Not exactly your SQs and AAs, but a few.
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Out of curiosity, I have leased a 742 earlier today. I have 4 South American bases at CCS, BOG, UIO and LIM. No matter how hard I tried, I can't squeeze more than 400K DOP out of the 742, even if I put it on 2 different routes to Europe with no competition and 0.5 frequency each. I can't ask for a higher ticket price than about 450Eu on those routes, It feels like I myself oversaturate the market with that half flight alone. 400K covers little more than a third of the lease rate, so I'll have to return the plane on the last day of this month. It was an experiment, and it was fun to have a 747 in my fleet of 731s and 722s for a short while, but there is no way I can make this bird fly profitably.
Ok my hubs might not be the best, so maybe the 747 is only good for airlines based at killer hubs (but wouldn't they have more competition too?)
And this is at a point where intercontinental routes are still open for grabs. Don't want to know what it's like later when the good routes are all taken.
So anyway, who has their 742s operating with a profit?
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As I said in another post, the lease that you took out with that 742 was extremely high and would not have given anyone a decent profit to cover the cost of the lease let alone profit. what you have to do is to buy one instead of leasing one (unless the lease price goes down to about 15million). I'm about to hopefully recieve my brought 742 from mrorange and and going to put it on a very long route and then buy another and put it on shorter routes and see which is best.
what the formula to calculate the profit that your making from a leased plane is:
(p x 24)-(g+L)
p= Plane profit (view and buy aircraft page)
g= Gate cost(s) if your flying two routes into a airport where you have rented 1 gate, divide the gate value by two and insert it as g
L= Lease cost of aircraft
I can easily get about 2-4 million on a leased 732adv (@2million) & 732adv biz jet (@500k-900k)
although now looking at a route (e.g. THR-SFO) I can see that the 747-200 uses double the fuel comsumption that a 707-320B or a IL-62 does and now thinking about it I might go which one of those two after I buy two 742's
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So anyway, who has their 742s operating with a profit?
Minimum lease for a 747-200 is around 19M. In order to recover the leasing costs, you'll have to make around 800k per day, which I highly doubt anyone comes close to. Best case scenario: someone is probably making around 600k with a 747-200.
At 600k, it will still take 27 months to recover the purchase cost.
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In my opinion the problem is the high amount of seats. Even flying a 0.5x is like flying a 2x frequency on a 731. So you are killing yourself, even if you are ALONE on the route. As calculated above, there is no way anybody can operate a leased 742 with profit.
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Out of curiosity, I have leased a 742 earlier today. I have 4 South American bases at CCS, BOG, UIO and LIM. No matter how hard I tried, I can't squeeze more than 400K DOP out of the 742, even if I put it on 2 different routes to Europe with no competition and 0.5 frequency each. I can't ask for a higher ticket price than about 450Eu on those routes, It feels like I myself oversaturate the market with that half flight alone. 400K covers little more than a third of the lease rate, so I'll have to return the plane on the last day of this month. It was an experiment, and it was fun to have a 747 in my fleet of 731s and 722s for a short while, but there is no way I can make this bird fly profitably.
Ok my hubs might not be the best, so maybe the 747 is only good for airlines based at killer hubs (but wouldn't they have more competition too?)
And this is at a point where intercontinental routes are still open for grabs. Don't want to know what it's like later when the good routes are all taken.
So anyway, who has their 742s operating with a profit?
i make more on the flying x2 .5 routes accross the atantic on routes from EU-US.
it probly would be good on like Atlanta-Hathrow? two mega sized airports..... but once one sheep does it... every other in the flock will soon follow.
in this simulation becuase of the inabilty to add different classes the 747 is unreasonable. also, 747 has a lot of cargo space where extra rev can be earned, and its high yealed business and first class/premium economy class ticketing revs.
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I had 5 742's and sold them all, am making more profit on a 990 then I did on a 742, for 1/3 of the acquisition cost. The biggest problem with the 742 on any route with competition is that it drives the price down rapidly and you are forced to match prices with TU's and 73BBJ's, planes with far lower costbase. Even on high density routes LHR-ORD and LHR-ATL my 990's do better then the 742
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Yes in some cases prices drop to fast and in some to slow. Unfortunately this is very difficult for the programmers to do.
Waerth
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My 747-200 is coming in about 3 minutes :D We'll see how good it is.
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mmmmmm.....
indeed im not too happy at the moment
742
SIN-FRA
FRA-KBL
one hr to spare, and $307,000
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What did you expect :lol:
I would just use it becuase its big and has prestige
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What did you expect :lol:
I would just use it becuase its big and has prestige
And loose money on it? No way I'm gonna use the 747. :wink:
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What did you expect :lol:
I would just use it becuase its big and has prestige
Yeah, honestly, its also prestige.
:D
But i don't think I'm gonna buy any more.
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If you buy it you do not loose money on it! It will just take longer to get your money back .... but that is also true in real life!
Waerth
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If you buy it you do not loose money on it! It will just take longer to get your money back .... but that is also true in real life!
Waerth
so, it makes money. :roll:
In real life, it earns money. Thats probably why over a thousand have been mede.
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but we have to remember that other planes in ones fleet can contribute to paying back that amount. Im at 350million euros at the moment and have been saving up for a 742 (just like a little boy :lol: ) and im waiting for delivery (if Mrorange decides if he wants to hurry up a tad bit)
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8)
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Ive got a nasty feeling this is going to happen with my new L1011 which is due 2moro
it is scheduled to fly:
MAN-ATL (.5)
MAN-ORD(.5)
I got 2 more DC8's on order, one is to replace my DC-7A, the other is to be based at MAN to serve the rest of my north american routes. If the L1011 does have poor operating performance, Ill sell or lease the beast out, and but more DC8's.
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Honestly, as someone who had Uber-hubs before, large aircraft for longhaul are a waste of time and money.
The biggest aircraft which are viable on longhaul are in the 250-300 seat range. More than this is overkill. During the last stint from 1979-1995, I had 10 742s in total in my fleet of over 4000 aircraft. In my longhaul fleet, I had about 500 733ERs and 735ERs for routes from western Europe - eastern North America and Africa and eastern Europe - Africa, Middle East and India , which were supported by 20 752s and 150 A320s. I also had over 200 763ERs for pretty much the rest of the world. To repeat 747s are a waste of money. DC8s, DC10s and L1011s are really the largest planes you should buy in any real numbers.
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Ive got a nasty feeling this is going to happen with my new L1011 which is due 2moro
it is scheduled to fly:
MAN-ATL (.5)
MAN-ORD(.5)
I got 2 more DC8's on order, one is to replace my DC-7A, the other is to be based at MAN to serve the rest of my north american routes. If the L1011 does have poor operating performance, Ill sell or lease the beast out, and but more DC8's.
well moment of truth is here. L1011 for ME(this is my opinion on the performance not fact before u forum ganets start to attack me).... has slightly overkilled MAN-ATL and MAN-ORD on .5 frequencies but is making a nice £500.000 proffit per day.... but i doubt ill be purchasing the L1011 again, ill stick with my growing fleet of DC8's
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This is something i dont understand in this game,
if i buy a canadair with 32 seats it makes half the DOP as a 747 wich costs more then 10times as much. :roll:
This how the big ones get so big quick just fill all local routes with fokkers and the DOP flies up.
I hope the programmers find a solution to chang the logic and tackle this problem.
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This is something i dont understand in this game,
if i buy a canadair with 32 seats it makes half the DOP as a 747 wich costs more then 10times as much. :roll:
This how the big ones get so big quick just fill all local routes with fokkers and the DOP flies up.
I hope the programmers find a solution to chang the logic and tackle this problem.
Actually, it makes a lot of sense, supply and demand, since you are flying a larger aircraft, you will have to charge less to fill it up, plus, factor in fuel burn, turn time, other such costs, it will affect things a bit. But one thing I think that can make a 747 (and most widebodies actually) to be more feasable to operate is to eventually integrate cargo into the game, which I recall is in the plans, but not until reliable cargo data can be found for most if not all of the airports.
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On low demand routes and short routes it does make sense but on long routes like flying from europe to south america with no competetors between airports with more then 10mil passengers you can not fly a 747 profitable your even going to loose alot of money on those long routes.
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I would recommend against it. After receiving my first 742(with another on its way... unfortunately) it isn't that great of an aircraft. The range is the only reason im keeping it, because there are a few planned routes from my hubs that only it can fly. If you want capacity i would recommend DC-10 or DC-8 and if you want range the best I'd have to say is definitely the Il-62
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How many does a 747Sp seat? They'll probably be my longhaul aircraft of choice.
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On low demand routes and short routes it does make sense but on long routes like flying from europe to south america with no competetors between airports with more then 10mil passengers you can not fly a 747 profitable your even going to loose alot of money on those long routes.
I don't know, I hear the thing has trouble operating between mega-airports (more than 30 mil) as it is already. Really, the 747 had the same effect on many airlines in the 1970s. The high engergy costs and high operating costs made it inpractical in most airlines fleets, especially in the US. As I said before, if cargo was implemented, this would be a whole lot more profitable of a plane than it is now.