Airline Mogul Forum
Airline Mogul => General Chat => Topic started by: IonWorks on November 12, 2007, 04:22:48 pm
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Stealth Bomber Air operator:
While I respect and appreciate your right to price routes competitively, you've created an extraordinary amount of work for everyone in game by lowering the rates on all your routes by 200 or 300 or 400% in the last 3 days. Because there is no automated way of managing routes, you're forcing every player who competes with you to manage all their routes individually. I play this game 5 or 6 times a day, managing routes carefully, and this morning I had over 100 routes that fell below 75% (and some below 50%, and some below 25%) because of what you're doing. Again, I have no problem with your undercutting, but the results of it -- the pain of point and clicking and typing 100 routes of management -- is very uncool. The game's lack of featureset will remedy over time. Maybe you could be a bit less drastic in your actions so that your fellow players aren't demotivated from playing?
Just an opinion,
David
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Could you take it to PM's please? I don't think you should mention the airlines name.
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Why shouldn't I mention the airline's name? It's a general discussion about the disruptiveness of going into a market and effecting it so drastically as to take people's 100% load to 25% in one fell swoop. Stealth Bomber Air is taking all his routes and moving them into silly cheap territory. And while I'll vigorously defend his right to do so, the problem is the game is not well setup for it. I went from 99.70% utilization on almost 300 routes to 70-something % overnight because of what he's doing. The effect is me having to retool too many routes, demotivating me from caring (because it's so much work, and so much point and clicking).
If we can't have open discussions about this, then there's no point to having a forum.
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Am I doing something wrong? 200-400%? I don't think so.
BTW, other airlines force me into the same situation. I can't get to every route constantly so here's a tip. I usually only get to updating once a day now just because of the large number of routes.
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Why not PM him and work something out? If not, try make a thread that vaguly describes who is doing this without saying his name and mention what he is doing? I mean, hes probebly just sick of having to reset his routes after being undercut by a Cent.
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You got that right!
I have to wonder if there's confusion between editing a route, and making a new one.
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Hiya fozzy,
Thanks for replying. From what I've been seeing the past few days, your prices for 1RT are about 25-50% of what the market is bearing. I had one route go from 100% to 2% because of your change in price. That's why I said 200-400% (I guess that number is relative to the market before you priced your 1RT). Take Orlando to Hartford/Springfield. There were 3 routes previously (0.5 @ 1350, 1 @1145, and 0.5 at a rate I don't know because it looks adjusted). You priced 1RT at 530. That drops everyone else's load factors by a lot. Is there a reason to price at 530?
I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, and for the third time, I defend everyone's right to undercut, but I guess I'm starting to feel the game's mechanical deficiencies, and in a big way, and over the last 3 days, it's mostly because of your prices :)
Best,
David
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It happened again, while I composed the above post.
Oakland -> Cincinnati. Look at the routes:
Stealth Bomber Air Lockheed R6V Constitution 1 €373
Coastal Air Boeing 377 Stratocruiser 1 €499
Northwest Airlines西北航空 Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 1 €500
Piedmont Airlines [FTG] Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 1 €500
Ramathorn [OT] Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 1 €509
☺↑ ▲ Island Air ▲ ↑☻ Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 0.5 €900
Shayne Air [FTG] Curtis CW-20 1 €980
Celestial Bristol 170 Wayfarer 1 €1,300
Is the game forcing you to price 1RT at 373, which is 36% lower than the nearest competitor? My route dropped from 100% to 78%. (Sadly, I created the route 90 minutes ago *laugh*).
Just curious,
David
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There a big difference in price due to the size and frequency of the aircraft. A 100-seat Constellation doing a round-trip can't charge nearly as much as a smaller plane making a one-way route. €579 was probably right on the edge of a full load when that fare was created. Thanks for the heads-up though, because now that route can charge €597 :)
Stealth Bomber Air Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 1 €579
"Airline 2" Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 0.5 €830
"Airline 3" Douglas DC-5 1 €1,145
"Airline 4" Martin 2-0-2 0.5 €1,350
Edit: David, I probably created that Cincy-Oakland route a couple days ago. I have so many routes, at 78%, I wouldn't even be editing it unless I was REALLY bored.
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I'm not sure I understand why a larger aircraft can't charge as much as a smaller plane. I've seen a bit of that while I've graduated to larger planes and markets, but I'm not sure I get how the economics work like that. Plane size shouldn't matter except to further diminish demand.
Edit: Fozzy, really? You didnt edit it this afternoon? Wow, then that's really weird! I created the route 90 minutes before having to edit it. :(
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If you mean the larger plane charging lower than a smaller one it's because of this:
Larger plane=more seats=harder to get seats filled with current price=lower price to fill all seats.
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Hiya LOT,
You wrote:
Larger plane=more seats=harder to get seats filled with current price=lower price to fill all seats.
I'm sorry, but that's not parsing for me. If there's demand for seats on a route, customers will tend to choose the lower price (discounting such factors as brand loyalty and other things AM doesnt consider). If you have a 12 seater running a route at 300 and I have a 100 seater running a route at 299, a rational customer chooses my airline, no?
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It happened again, while I composed the above post.
Oakland -> Cincinnati. Look at the routes:
Airline1 Lockheed R6V Constitution 1 €373
Airline2 Boeing 377 Stratocruiser 1 €499
Airline3 Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 1 €500
Airline4 Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 1 €500
Airline5 Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 1 €509
Airline6 Lockheed Super Constellation L-1049 0.5 €900
Airline7 Curtis CW-20 1 €980
Airline8 Bristol 170 Wayfarer 1 €1,300
Is the game forcing you to price 1RT at 373, which is 36% lower than the nearest competitor? My route dropped from 100% to 78%. (Sadly, I created the route 90 minutes ago *laugh*).
Just curious,
David
The difference between flying an R6V (168 passengers each way) vs. a Lockheed (109 passengers each way) can be significant.
First off, I can't believe I'm not flying this route. Second, look at what happens when I put a Lockheed @ 2 frequencies. I undercut Airline1 by 15%!
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And I just dropped to 55% :(
I'll get ya back later when I'm not at work :twisted:
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And I just dropped to 55% :(
I'll get ya back later when I'm not at work :twisted:
Ok, first we need to find out who you are working for. Then you may have different problems than dropping LF :wink:
Next: why dont you look for different routes? Give up a base and look for another one where you can create more valuable routes. Biggest airports are so crowded today that it is sometimes easier to make money from midsized ones. It is the first season I play this game and did not start on the first day of this round was started but I am still satisfied with my business although I read in the forums here that Europe is not easy to play from. Remember: it is just a game. Or as my drill sergant told me: "Sometimes you lose - sometimes the other one wins." :wink:
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This should be done through PM.
Airplanes with more seats need lower price to fill because say out of 100 people, 10% are willing to pay higher fare, a 9 seater would have been filled. A 100 seater needs to lower the price to the acceptable level of the 100th pax to fill all 100 seats. Simple, no?
Fare war is all part of this game. There is never only one party responsible for the drop. Stop singling out players. (And I kind of think you have singled out the wrong player this time in addition to that :roll: )
And finally, you yourself don't have time to manage every single route doesn't mean the players who have time and patience have to not manage theirs because of you. That is totally illogical. ( :wink: @ IonWorks) The whole undercutting is meant to get you demotivated to manage your route anyway... so that is another logical issue :wink:
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Hiya LOT,
You wrote:
Larger plane=more seats=harder to get seats filled with current price=lower price to fill all seats.
I'm sorry, but that's not parsing for me. If there's demand for seats on a route, customers will tend to choose the lower price (discounting such factors as brand loyalty and other things AM doesnt consider). If you have a 12 seater running a route at 300 and I have a 100 seater running a route at 299, a rational customer chooses my airline, no?
You also forgot other things, such as what is left of the demand. From what I experianced, usually, if a smaller plane arrives on a route, especially if it can go quicker, it can charge higher. But yes, customers will choose lower price, but if you have lower amount of seats/frequency, you can charge higher, but be aware this dosn't work in every case.
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This should be done through PM.
The thread, by being out in the open, has fostered discussion.
Airplanes with more seats need lower price to fill because say out of 100 people, 10% are willing to pay higher fare, a 9 seater would have been filled. A 100 seater needs to lower the price to the acceptable level of the 100th pax to fill all 100 seats. Simple, no?
Not at the level of 10 seats vs. 100 in markets with 10 million+ passengers.
Fare war is all part of this game. There is never only one party responsible for the drop. Stop singling out players.
While my subject line did refer to a player, most of this thread has been about the game and its mechanics.
(And I kind of think you have singled out the wrong player this time in addition to that)
Very possibly, though I didn't know that at the time of the post, and this discussion has shed light on the game's mechanics and how they may have mislead me to believe fozzy was the cause of my consternation.
And finally, you yourself don't have time to manage every single route doesn't mean the players who have time and patience have to not manage theirs because of you. That is totally illogical.
Illogical, and a thought not attributable to me. As previously posted, I login 5 or 6 times a day and manage my routes very granularly. I believe I take more time than most to keep my load factor at or near 99%.
The whole undercutting is meant to get you demotivated to manage your route anyway
If that's true, then maybe AM isn't for me. AM's attraction has been airline building, and the "death spiral" of prices seen in some markets is both unrealistic and unfun. I see the downwards spiralling of prices over time as one of the game's biggest flaws. I'm hoping over time, more true-to-life economic factors are put in to ameliorate this and make the game more complex.
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IonWorks, why not try out a much smaller market, you'll be able to have a much stable growth but are low on money making, larger markets are good money makers, but highly unstable.
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This should be done through PM.
The thread, by being out in the open, has fostered discussion.
You are lucky that fozzybr didn't bite you head off. Right now, this is a civilized discussion. However, more often than not, this would have turned into a flame war. As a result this is not an appropriate way to deal with these situations. (I could accept your other points as differences in opinions, but this, don't argue with me. This is more like a rule / conduct in this forum.)
The whole undercutting is meant to get you demotivated to manage your route anyway
If that's true, then maybe AM isn't for me. AM's attraction has been airline building, and the "death spiral" of prices seen in some markets is both unrealistic and unfun. I see the downwards spiralling of prices over time as one of the game's biggest flaws. I'm hoping over time, more true-to-life economic factors are put in to ameliorate this and make the game more complex.
I don't really understand you at this point. If by realistic you mean we have to have a price limit, that is not realistic as well. If by realistic, you mean the price should not go down with the increase of supply / competition, that is illogical at best. I agree that there could be more factors leading to the loads, and thus prices. However, prices go down. That is not going to change. If we put a minimum or a range to the prices, your load would just go down with the increase of competition. It doesn't make a difference, except it takes time away from our developers. And what is realistic anyway? "News" in the media are not strictly realistic. Free tickets are not unrealistic. We have been through that multiple times in this forum so I won't repeat those arguments. Trust me, all aviation sim games feature either a drop of prices or loads with the increase of seats and competitions. Maybe econ sim in general isn't for you? (I think I am being mean again, but that is the truth :wink: )
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The whole undercutting is meant to get you demotivated to manage your route anyway
If that's true, then maybe AM isn't for me. AM's attraction has been airline building, and the "death spiral" of prices seen in some markets is both unrealistic and unfun. I see the downwards spiralling of prices over time as one of the game's biggest flaws. I'm hoping over time, more true-to-life economic factors are put in to ameliorate this and make the game more complex.
it is somewhat accurate and realistic, the death spiral that is. As i recall, i once saw a fact that a fully loaded United Airlines flight from JFK-LAX only made $1 (one USD) profit. the spiral itself is accentuated, and somewhat sped up, in AM which is a bit of a problem but this is largely due to overcrowding of the game. We're hoping we can alleviate some of this by getting multiple worlds out so we can spread our impressive player base (around 1960 active accounts) across more worlds. This is also a little due to the unrealistic speed at which airlines grow, we're hoping down the line to slow the game more (we've been taking small steps as we can to slow it a bit, and some leaps between ages, but it's so far not as effective as we would like) which should slow down the spiral as well.
Think about it sometime, look up prices between ORD and ATL (two of the largest airports in the US), they face high service so their prices are low, while routes with little competition and demand tend to face little service and high ticket prices.
But yes, the spiral is being looked into, however it is a fact of life. prices will not stay high, especially when competition comes into the picture.
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t is somewhat accurate and realistic, the death spiral that is. As i recall, i once saw a fact that a fully loaded United Airlines flight from JFK-LAX only made $1 (one USD) profit.
Yikes!
the spiral itself is accentuated, and somewhat sped up, in AM which is a bit of a problem but this is largely due to overcrowding of the game. We're hoping we can alleviate some of this by getting multiple worlds out so we can spread our impressive player base (around 1960 active accounts) across more worlds. This is also a little due to the unrealistic speed at which airlines grow, we're hoping down the line to slow the game more (we've been taking small steps as we can to slow it a bit, and some leaps between ages, but it's so far not as effective as we would like) which should slow down the spiral as well.
Think about it sometime, look up prices between ORD and ATL (two of the largest airports in the US), they face high service so their prices are low, while routes with little competition and demand tend to face little service and high ticket prices.
But yes, the spiral is being looked into, however it is a fact of life. prices will not stay high, especially when competition comes into the picture.
*nod* I have seen you post on this before, and it's one of the things I appreciate most about you and Stephen -- I am fully confident that over time, the major issues of this game will be remedied and the game will be even more fun than it is now! :)
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This is also a little due to the unrealistic speed at which airlines grow, we're hoping down the line to slow the game more (we've been taking small steps as we can to slow it a bit, and some leaps between ages, but it's so far not as effective as we would like) which should slow down the spiral as well.
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Wouldnt it be easy to reduce that speed by setting higher delivery times for bigger sized aircrafts? Lets say a DC-3 is 24days, a CW-20 36days and a L-1049 will be 48 or 60days?
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Wouldnt it be easy to reduce that speed by setting higher delivery times for bigger sized aircrafts? Lets say a DC-3 is 24days, a CW-20 36days and a L-1049 will be 48 or 60days?
Problem with that is the B747's and 777's would take more than a year in-game to get delivered.
The easiest way is to increase the prices for the planes.
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Shouldnt be a straight increase of deliverie times. Just say:
<50pax 24days
<100pax 36days
<200pax 48days
<400pax 60 days
>400pax 72 days
So its 3 real days for the biggest one. It will be worth until this multi-world thing will be available.
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dktc - I don't bite! :D
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Shouldnt be a straight increase of deliverie times. Just say:
<50pax 24days
<100pax 36days
<200pax 48days
<400pax 60 days
>400pax 72 days
So its 3 real days for the biggest one. It will be worth until this multi-world thing will be available.
It actually takes longer for those planes with high pax right now :wink: You don't get a B747 delevered in 72 days.
@fozzybr, that is why I said IonWork is lucky, but then he/she is not convinced that the first post should be done through PM (which he/she just let me know through PM). Oh well... who am I to say what is right? If someone bite his/her head off next time, it would not be my problem :)
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Didnt know that. Its the first round I play. So were can I order the 747? Need one now before this round is over! LOL just kidding.
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(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc150/ihaspistons/roflrobbersIBTL.gif)
:shock:
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The whole undercutting is meant to get you demotivated to manage your route anyway
If that's true, then maybe AM isn't for me. AM's attraction has been airline building, and the "death spiral" of prices seen in some markets is both unrealistic and unfun. I see the downwards spiralling of prices over time as one of the game's biggest flaws. I'm hoping over time, more true-to-life economic factors are put in to ameliorate this and make the game more complex.
it is somewhat accurate and realistic, the death spiral that is. As i recall, i once saw a fact that a fully loaded United Airlines flight from JFK-LAX only made $1 (one USD) profit. the spiral itself is accentuated, and somewhat sped up, in AM which is a bit of a problem but this is largely due to overcrowding of the game. We're hoping we can alleviate some of this by getting multiple worlds out so we can spread our impressive player base (around 1960 active accounts) across more worlds. This is also a little due to the unrealistic speed at which airlines grow, we're hoping down the line to slow the game more (we've been taking small steps as we can to slow it a bit, and some leaps between ages, but it's so far not as effective as we would like) which should slow down the spiral as well.
Think about it sometime, look up prices between ORD and ATL (two of the largest airports in the US), they face high service so their prices are low, while routes with little competition and demand tend to face little service and high ticket prices.
But yes, the spiral is being looked into, however it is a fact of life. prices will not stay high, especially when competition comes into the picture.
It's great how closely AE mimicks real life. Flying to major airports is often much cheaper than flying to the tiny ones. The "downward spiral" is inevitable. It's actually the policy of my airline to offer the passenger the lowest price possible, not to gouge them.
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The whole undercutting is meant to get you demotivated to manage your route anyway
If that's true, then maybe AM isn't for me. AM's attraction has been airline building, and the "death spiral" of prices seen in some markets is both unrealistic and unfun. I see the downwards spiralling of prices over time as one of the game's biggest flaws. I'm hoping over time, more true-to-life economic factors are put in to ameliorate this and make the game more complex.
it is somewhat accurate and realistic, the death spiral that is. As i recall, i once saw a fact that a fully loaded United Airlines flight from JFK-LAX only made $1 (one USD) profit.
At least it wasn't operated at a loss, like many major hub routes are.
And as much as I would LOVE to slap Fozzy in the back of the head for the situation are ORD, it is his decision to wipe out all of the large routes in an effort to make more.
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Well your wait for less crowdedness comes closer with multiple worlds!
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I don't understand whats the problem with that.. I do the same thing.. fly more frequencies with more planes.. thats how you compete. What did you expect?
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The whole undercutting is meant to get you demotivated to manage your route anyway
If that's true, then maybe AM isn't for me. AM's attraction has been airline building, and the "death spiral" of prices seen in some markets is both unrealistic and unfun. I see the downwards spiralling of prices over time as one of the game's biggest flaws. I'm hoping over time, more true-to-life economic factors are put in to ameliorate this and make the game more complex.
it is somewhat accurate and realistic, the death spiral that is. As i recall, i once saw a fact that a fully loaded United Airlines flight from JFK-LAX only made $1 (one USD) profit.
At least it wasn't operated at a loss, like many major hub routes are
Odds are it typically is. 100% loadfactor on any route is pretty rare, and it took 100% LF on that route to earn $1 dollar profit.
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And I just dropped to 55% :(
I'll get ya back later when I'm not at work :twisted:
Ok, first we need to find out who you are working for. Then you may have different problems than dropping LF :wink:
Next: why dont you look for different routes? Give up a base and look for another one where you can create more valuable routes. Biggest airports are so crowded today that it is sometimes easier to make money from midsized ones. It is the first season I play this game and did not start on the first day of this round was started but I am still satisfied with my business although I read in the forums here that Europe is not easy to play from. Remember: it is just a game. Or as my drill sergant told me: "Sometimes you lose - sometimes the other one wins." :wink:
Trully agree with this one :wink: . You doesn't have to take this game so seriously until the game take you seriously you know :roll:
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CornField - consider me slapped :lol:
BTW, SBX doesn't own the most flights out of ORD, just the most pax, and that seems to change daily with this competition!
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Oh wow...a lot of spam in one day :lol:
But hey that airline can do whatever he wants :lol: . I even get complaints like this. One said "STOP RUINING MY NETWORK IN EUROPE" In caps and even though he was based in South America :roll: .
But hey... i'd ignore them :lol:
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The antagonist airline here is hardly the worst or the only one. Let those without sin (of undercutting) cast the first stone.
If people want to ruin a route, they're making less money at the same time as their opponents. Fair enough.
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I think AM is a game that mainly do creating routes and, cutting price.
When a route is lowered to 1 euro, then it is certified dead.
And you should not feel sad, instead, you should be happy because you have 1 route free from editing. :lol:
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You mean like HND-KIX has died? I feel your pain. I can let 16k evaporate from my bank account every hour! :lol:
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You mean like HND-KIX has died? I feel your pain. I can let 16k evaporate from my bank account every hour! :lol:
Well HND-KIX died because of competition. The more vigorous comprtition it has, the faster it die.
If your competitors want the route die, then just do him/her a favor. :lol:
I have prepared for the worst.