Airline Mogul Forum
Airline Mogul => General Chat => Topic started by: iranair777 on August 07, 2007, 03:29:16 pm
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Why is there suddenly soooooo much competition???? its harrasing for my short haul routes and i've been forced to close a couple of routes. in a matter of about half a week from a sudden change in 100% load factors i'm now getting and average of 30-50%.
its just ridiculous :(
right, happily i've got that out, been wanting to do it for ages
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At least your competition has not lashed out at you in the forum :wink:
This is the nature of the game. You could either cahnge base or lower your ticket price.
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At least your competition has not lashed out at you in the forum :wink:
This is the nature of the game. You could either cahnge base or lower your ticket price.
thats the problem, if i lower the price i don't get enough money to especially fund my other planned expansions
i bet you airlines don't get sooooo much competition :o
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i bet you airlines don't get sooooo much competition :o
How much did you bet?? I have won all of them.
Just explore around the forum and look back to the posts a month or two before. You would see how much competition my airlines had.
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We are working to remove airlines with mutliple accounts. This as you all know is not allowed in Airline Mogul and fines along with account deletion are being dished out. If you have more than 1 account and dont want to be fined I'd advise you own up!
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We are working to remove airlines with mutliple accounts. This as you all know is not allowed in Airline Mogul and fines along with account deletion are being dished out. If you have more than 1 account and dont want to be fined I'd advise you own up!
well, at least i'm a good boy and i've trashed my idea of starting a airline with the base in tehran :wink:, so instead i'll do it next round
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Well I'm sure you'll make plenty of money there, I didn't realise how busy Iranian airports were!
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My DOP is getting smashed before i even set another route , i was away in 4 hours and 1 million is already gone from my dop.. :(
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My DOP is getting smashed before i even set another route , i was away in 4 hours and 1 million is already gone from my dop.. :(
advice: update your prices as soon as you see the DOP dropping, you can keep it up to a point that way. I know it's hard :cry:
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Advice: Learn to settle for 85%+ LF's, it'll make some of the small changes less frequent and less annoying... the sub 85%'s though tend to need updating. I've got quite a few sitting in the mid-upper 90%'s that i'm quite content to leave there, as adjusting it will just cause a vicious cycle and will not yield a sufficient change in DOP.
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One of my competitors dropped out. Therefore I own all of his routes, were I battled him alone. I fly to small airports and my airplanes do not make big amounts of money but as more you have as more money you make. I even built bases on small airports. When you make interesting routes from those small airports you can earn good money. If you can't afford big airplanes then buy more smaller ones or wait until you are fit enough to purchase the big ones! If you buy a big one new it takes much longer until the company delivers - keep that in mind. Smaller airplanes are faster in service because you don't have to wait so long!
I have withdrawn from two routes only. Just because they didn't make much money. There is one route in Europe were some guys battled over the price and the fare is 19,-€. So I looked for more interesting routes. I try to have my airplanes in the air all the time. Some of my airplanes are flying to 5 destinations, just to avoid them resting without earning. The Bombardier CRJ Planes are great to make big money by having several ones. Even the small Boeing 737 makes very good money. The ATR-72 is also not bad in producing big income. Those are very cheap airplanes, apart from the little more expensive 737. If your airplane is flying to 5 destinations and making 4 times 25k per day and another 15k per day for the 5th destination than you actually make a lot of money with one small airplane, like the Dornier 228. Don't go for the Jumbos early, stick with your small airplanes until you make enough money that you can easily go for bigger airplanes.
I started with a couple of Dornier 228 Airplanes. Sure, their old and tiny but they were available and more important they were very cheap. I still use them. I just ordered new ones to replace the Dornier's. When I ordered the replacements I had 90million left. The price is just 2million for a single Beech 1900D to replace my aging Dornier fleet.
Don't lease to much airplanes. Don't lease jumbos, just because you can fly a certain route. By used planes, you can use them right away because you don't have to wait for the delivery. Check the airplane prices if it makes sense to pay more than the new price for a used one. Sometimes its good to pay an overpriced and used airplane when you can use it right away. Sometimes you better wait for the delivery.
Look for routes were no one else is flying. Its easy to check out. Look at the Airport site of the departing airport and the arriving airport. There you can see easy if you will be the only one flying this route and if you are you can make higher prices than dealing with competetors.
Sometimes it is better to fly a route 10 times a day and sometimes 0.5 times a day. You have to try out with the prices and the amount of flights.
Don't give up your profitable routes with small airplanes just you can buy a jumbo after selling the small airplanes. They produce income while you can't play!
cu, Spaceball
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One of my competitors dropped out. Therefore I own all of his routes, were I battled him alone. I fly to small airports and my airplanes do not make big amounts of money but as more you have as more money you make. I even built bases on small airports. When you make interesting routes from those small airports you can earn good money. If you can't afford big airplanes then buy more smaller ones or wait until you are fit enough to purchase the big ones! If you buy a big one new it takes much longer until the company delivers - keep that in mind. Smaller airplanes are faster in service because you don't have to wait so long!
I have withdrawn from two routes only. Just because they didn't make much money. There is one route in Europe were some guys battled over the price and the fare is 19,-€. So I looked for more interesting routes. I try to have my airplanes in the air all the time. Some of my airplanes are flying to 5 destinations, just to avoid them resting without earning. The Bombardier CRJ Planes are great to make big money by having several ones. Even the small Boeing 737 makes very good money. The ATR-72 is also not bad in producing big income. Those are very cheap airplanes, apart from the little more expensive 737. If your airplane is flying to 5 destinations and making 4 times 25k per day and another 15k per day for the 5th destination than you actually make a lot of money with one small airplane, like the Dornier 228. Don't go for the Jumbos early, stick with your small airplanes until you make enough money that you can easily go for bigger airplanes.
I started with a couple of Dornier 228 Airplanes. Sure, their old and tiny but they were available and more important they were very cheap. I still use them. I just ordered new ones to replace the Dornier's. When I ordered the replacements I had 90million left. The price is just 2million for a single Beech 1900D to replace my aging Dornier fleet.
Don't lease to much airplanes. Don't lease jumbos, just because you can fly a certain route. By used planes, you can use them right away because you don't have to wait for the delivery. Check the airplane prices if it makes sense to pay more than the new price for a used one. Sometimes its good to pay an overpriced and used airplane when you can use it right away. Sometimes you better wait for the delivery.
Look for routes were no one else is flying. Its easy to check out. Look at the Airport site of the departing airport and the arriving airport. There you can see easy if you will be the only one flying this route and if you are you can make higher prices than dealing with competetors.
Sometimes it is better to fly a route 10 times a day and sometimes 0.5 times a day. You have to try out with the prices and the amount of flights.
Don't give up your profitable routes with small airplanes just you can buy a jumbo after selling the small airplanes. They produce income while you can't play!
cu, Spaceball
a very nice guide here. should put this as sticky
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Some things I'd like to point out though:
Leasing isn't necessarily bad, you just have to know what you're doing. It is much more useful to lease medium-size aircraft, such as the 737 series, because they generally cost less to lease per month (brokers offer it around 1.5 million) and they generate a much higher income than the larger, and more expensive, long-range airplanes.
What I tend to do before wanting to lease an airplane, is take (the leasing fee + X) and divide it by 24, where X equals the average slot cost (€40.000) times the number of routes you can fly with it. This will give you the approximate DOP the airplane has to make to become profitable.
So if I want to lease a 737-400 from my own brokerage (leasing at €850.000), which could be making 7 or 8 flights per day, I calculate the following:
X = 8 * 40.000 = 320.000
(850.000 + 320.000) / 24 = 48.750
So the aircraft will have to make €48.751 per day to be profitable, which is very possible with a 737-400. However, if I decide to lease a 747-400 from another airline at the used market for 12 million, it may seem like a reasonable price, but try to calculate it.
X = 2 * 40.000 = 80.000
(12.000.000 + 80.000) / 24 = 503.333
Now, the aircraft will have to make €503.334 to be profitable, which 1) is much harder, and 2) will give you a much lower return.
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shhhhhhhh everyone... I'm leasing out my 777-200's for 15 million a month and making quite a tidy profit as a result! Just out of interest. what's everyone's DOP's? Mine's almost 27 million a day.
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Mine has been up to €80 million, but I didn't have much time available and had a brokerage to run, so that has dropped to €40 million with an additional €144.5 million income monthly on leases.
EDIT: Can a 777-2 make €630.000 per day? :wink:
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Just out of interest. what's everyone's DOP's? Mine's almost 27 million a day.
Well, 27 million sounds a lot. :) But what's the average DOP per plane?That's the interesting point to me. ;)
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talk about DOP drop.. I left for 10 days.. and when I got back.. my DOP went from 104 mil to 63 mil... competition is great, embrace it! 8)
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Just out of interest. what's everyone's DOP's? Mine's almost 27 million a day.
Well, 27 million sounds a lot. :) But what's the average DOP per plane?That's the interesting point to me. ;)
erm well i have a vary varied fleet, im leasing about 32 737-er's for 1.35 million a month, leasing a couple of 747's for 10 million, couple of 757's. and now im starting to make quite a bit of money from leasing 777's i've still got about 18 on order.
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my DOP is 6.1 million but worth 2billion and heres my fleet:
http://www.airlinemogul.com/airlinemogul/view_airline.php?id=679
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10 million? Leasing in? That's still quite expensive. The most I'll ever lease in at is €8 million, which is why I don't lease in a lot. My value is about €38 billion, DOP still around €40 million but since I'm ceasing airline operations for this round and focussing on being a broker, that will soon be 0.
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I had a DOP of 120+ million per month.
10 million is expensive to lease in but is only fair to lease out. I would admit that my lease rates for large planes are high, but then I don't like ordering large planes to lease out. (So... either pay me or you don't get it... afterall I have to survive too).
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My DOP has gone from 25+Mil to 8Mil in a matter of days, due to the 'competition' we seem to be getting in Asia, In fact, Im bold enough to say at the current situation most of Asia is Saturated, in a matter of 3 days 4 new airlines HUB'ed my Main HUB, it didn't stop their.. Sad to say, i don't even bother editing my routes anymore, i seriously have more to do than go on the website to, update 150+ flights, which will take a few hours, then i have to try and save my DOP, which goes down a few mil a day due to these foreign airlines basing 50 CRJ's a day with all 0.5 freq. etc, you get my drift.. Sadly, i just don't find that any FUN. the reason i play at least, realism, entertainment.. right now im not experiencing any of that, I have higher hopes for next round though! :)
:roll:
Hope we get rid of these multi's , BTW, will their be a system to report 'suspicous' airlines? some are fairly suss looking, not naming anyone.....
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im still making a small profit on the 747's for 10 million. Its not so much geting proft on the long routes, its limiting the growth of my competitors from gatwick. if some of my competitors were the only airline flying some of the long haul routes they would make a killing and muscle me out the shourt haul routes. This way i can have a bit more control!
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Sad to say, i don't even bother editing my routes anymore, i seriously have more to do than go on the website to, update 150+ flights, which will take a few hours, then i have to try and save my DOP, which goes down a few mil a day. ..Sadly, i just don't find that any FUN.
will their be a system to report 'suspicous' airlines?....
The same reason I suspended my airline operation. Editing routes is no fun.
PM StephenM or DanielD. That is the system :wink:
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I tend to survive quite well with my ridicoulously low leasing rates :) But clearly, most of my money is made from selling planes. The only good thing about leasing out large planes is that when the airplane is returned, I can sell it on for quite a lot of money. And I do get a nice-looking customer base from it. But really, that's about all the advantages of it.
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OMG...
i've just been forced to close my first ever route which i had with my ATR-72-500 LHR-rotterdam due to competition :cry: :cry: :cry:
anyone wanna buy a ATR from me for 15 million?
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My DOP is 5million a day. Its really easy to make good Money in Europe in these days. On some routes I have just 2% market share but I make 45k a day with an single airplane. Just because I can ask for a high price for a 0.5 frequency. On other routes I have 10 flights a day and make 35k but 95% or 100% marketshare.
I once leased a Jumbo for 15million and when I calculated what I will earn I realised that small leased airplanes make a good revenue but my Jumbo produced a loss of almost 10million a month. So I waited until I could purchase the bird directly from Airbus.
There are so many routes were there is no competetor getting in your way. I will spread my wings to these routes. Especially small airports produce a good revenue because most players tend to have glamouros routes and big jumbos. I better stick with my puny little aircrafts and fly from small airports to small airports. When you create a route and you know that the passengers are about 1000 than you know you have to go for that route.
@iranair777
Err, why don't you just rent a gate on a different airport and send your ATR making Money?
cu, Spaceball
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I tend to survive quite well with my ridicoulously low leasing rates :) But clearly, most of my money is made from selling planes. The only good thing about leasing out large planes is that when the airplane is returned, I can sell it on for quite a lot of money. And I do get a nice-looking customer base from it. But really, that's about all the advantages of it.
Will Orange Air set up a frequent buyer programme? :D :D
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If that's what you mean, if we notice you buy a lot of planes from us, you will get a discount. And let's just say you're definitely one of the airlines I'd think would apply to that category :)
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Thanks MrOrange :)
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If that's what you mean, if we notice you buy a lot of planes from us, you will get a discount. And let's just say you're definitely one of the airlines I'd think would apply to that category :)
can i join cause i've ordered about 70 planes from you? and thanks for the '330's :D
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As I said, when you order a lot, you'll get the discount. And is 70 a lot? Some would say yes, others wouldn't. :wink:
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Advice: Learn to settle for 85%+ LF's, it'll make some of the small changes less frequent and less annoying... the sub 85%'s though tend to need updating. I've got quite a few sitting in the mid-upper 90%'s that i'm quite content to leave there, as adjusting it will just cause a vicious cycle and will not yield a sufficient change in DOP.
That's a good strategy, but it doesnt really work when you have large aircraft with lots of frequencies.
Like airline X will have their fare at say, $100. Then if I go to like $101, i'll have an LF of 50%, but when i go to like $100 or $99, it'll jump to 100%. So in this case (which is a wide spread issue), its not really possible to get 85%.
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True, but what Elbonia probably also means (? :) ) is that when a route does drop to 85% (when it has been at 100%), you should think about leaving it at 85% because those routes are far less susceptible to changes in the loadfactor.
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Basically what i meant was, if it's a relatively small drop... say up to 15%, just let it be rather then trigger the kind of price-war that gets you into the situation you mentioned (where 101 = 50%, and 99 = 100%.) Not that it's not succeptable to a change, but it's just reasonably prudent the gain from that extra 15% likely isn't a huge amount a day, whereas the price war would be a huge hurt each day :P
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I understand JDubman. 7~8 out of 10 times, the situation is as he said. Only the remain 2~3 times, the initial drop would be less than 15%. Saying that, price wars are inevitable.
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Basically what i meant was, if it's a relatively small drop... say up to 15%, just let it be rather then trigger the kind of price-war that gets you into the situation you mentioned (where 101 = 50%, and 99 = 100%.) Not that it's not succeptable to a change, but it's just reasonably prudent the gain from that extra 15% likely isn't a huge amount a day, whereas the price war would be a huge hurt each day :P
How about going from $100 and a 0% LF, to 98 and 100% again. Case en point, what has been going on with me and my CLT base on several routes, more notable the hub-hub PIT-CLT route. Eventually, I am going to remove the 734 and replace it with several 753 flights... With the fare set at $50, unless forced to offer something else...
Regarding DOP, mine is over 9M, and I would like to bring that to more than 10M. I will do more international expansion out of CLT and PIT given that int'l routes out of there highly profitable...