Airline Mogul Forum
Airline Mogul => Game Strategy => Topic started by: Mastafa on May 25, 2011, 03:42:25 am
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So, I am having a debate here: When should I start long haul operations?
Should I wait till I have reached a DOC of 100 Million? Or should I wait for the last few years of the world?
I want all of your opinions! Thanks!
Link to my airline: Airline Mogul - See my airline (http://www.airlinemogul.com/airlinemogul/show_airline.php?id=38498&wid=1936)
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Start as soon as your DOC reaches 20-35% of the cost of a long-haul aircraft. That means it will be early enough so that you aren't doing massive replacements of aircraft on your high-traffic, domestic routes.
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I say max out your flights under 1000 nm first. Then start looking at achieving 100 mio. DOC
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Whats your DOC atm?
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So far, it is € 59,180,371. Awaiting orders for my 15 ATRs.
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So far, it is € 59,180,371. Awaiting orders for my 15 ATRs.
In a previous world i made long haul work with a DOC of just 10million, im sure you could make it work with that high of a DOC. just dont go buying 747's just yet. I had a fleet of 10 757-200 and 10 767-200ER in my previous world flying routes from London Heathrow to the US and Canada, middle east and Asia. It wasnt very profitable but i didnt go bankrupt, i did it for the prestige and ofcourse the enjoyment. With your DOC, im sure it will be a profitable cause. Also as you have 3 hubs, fly to each long haul destination from each of those 3 hubs.
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So far, it is € 59,180,371. Awaiting orders for my 15 ATRs.
In a previous world i made long haul work with a DOC of just 10million, im sure you could make it work with that high of a DOC. just dont go buying 747's just yet. I had a fleet of 10 757-200 and 10 767-200ER in my previous world flying routes from London Heathrow to the US and Canada, middle east and Asia. It wasnt very profitable but i didnt go bankrupt, i did it for the prestige and ofcourse the enjoyment. With your DOC, im sure it will be a profitable cause. Also as you have 3 hubs, fly to each long haul destination from each of those 3 hubs.
Well, in my last airline, I had a DOC of just below 70 Million and after I started using long haul a/c, I ended up going bankrupt, because of the fact I couldn't find time to replace them. I ended the world with a balance of negative 20 billion ( :P ). So, I am planning to start long haul after reaching an 150 ~ 200 Million DOC (that's a LOT)
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So far, it is € 59,180,371. Awaiting orders for my 15 ATRs.
In a previous world i made long haul work with a DOC of just 10million, im sure you could make it work with that high of a DOC. just dont go buying 747's just yet. I had a fleet of 10 757-200 and 10 767-200ER in my previous world flying routes from London Heathrow to the US and Canada, middle east and Asia. It wasnt very profitable but i didnt go bankrupt, i did it for the prestige and ofcourse the enjoyment. With your DOC, im sure it will be a profitable cause. Also as you have 3 hubs, fly to each long haul destination from each of those 3 hubs.
Well, in my last airline, I had a DOC of just below 70 Million and after I started using long haul a/c, I ended up going bankrupt, because of the fact I couldn't find time to replace them. I ended the world with a balance of negative 20 billion ( :P ). So, I am planning to start long haul after reaching an 150 ~ 200 Million DOC (that's a LOT)
Yea, my fleet was quite young and i managed to stay proftiable as there was only 8/9 years left in the world
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Good question, but with some very a very complex answers I'd have to say, mostly because of the amount of approaches that could be taken.
From the best memory of my experience (which excluding this round last was 2008)
If by long haul, you mean distance is greater than 3000nm, and with aircraft with more than 50 seats and worth more than 24 mil, definitely wait until you are sure you have found yourself with a sold, strong network within 2500 nm of the base (and that's for the airline to decide, because of where they may be based. Think about flying from an airport like, let's say Budapest, which I believe is typically listed in the game around 8 million passengers. I believe one could get away with it (though with a smaller aircraft, like a IL-18D, though a few IL-62s wouldn't be bad for routes that lead to the Megaports abroad) with at least 50 flights, due to the fact that it isn't an airport with a lot of cut throat competition (like your CDGs and LHRs) and is a fairly decent size. A smaller airport, like, let's take Kaliningrad for example, which enjoys the same geographical advantages of Budapest, but a far smaller passenger size should look at far more.
I think in most, if not all cases, in this game, an airline should focus more on the regional/domestic flying, especially as the maintenance costs of large aircraft suited for long distance travel (like even the IL-62) will really take a hard hit. But if you know smaller aircraft that can do the job, I'd say go for it. Much smaller cost (sometimes like a fifth of it), with a third of capacity and maybe 1000nm less range and 100 kts less cruising speed can be surprisingly worth it. If you're playing a 60s/70s round, something like the IL-18D or Tu-114D is usually very well worth it's money. But as with planning aircraft for your routes, one has to be careful and plan well ahead even when first getting these.
Here is a good example of what I had in Public World #9:
Antonov An-10A 18
Antonov An-24V* 73
Boeing 727-100 Executive 4
Breda-Zappata BZ-308 27
CSS-12 4
Ilyushin Il-14M 45
Ilyushin Il-18D 16
Ilyushin Il-62* 4
Industriewerk Il-14P 6
Nord 260 Super Broussard 1
Tupolev Tu-104A 3
Tupolev Tu-104V 13
Tupolev Tu-114D 37
Tupolev Tu-134* 35
Tupolev Tu-134A* 70
Yakovlev Yak-40* 26
*Launch Customer for specific type.
I had as bases:
Rzeszow
Leningrad
Kiev
Valencia
Milan Bergamo
Budapest
Odessa, Ukraine
So you can see, I was based out of some small to medium sized airports. I recall by the end of the round, I was the 14th most valuable active airline and still rising at that point.
But as I said, things may have changed in the years since I last played. The costs may have been revised, as well as other algorithms (though from what I feel, it doesn't look like so).
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I really think DOC isn't that important. You can have a DOC of 100mln+ without making any profit. I think it's better to look at your projected totals for the end of the month. If that's like +200mln you're fine with doing L/H.
Personally I'd fly every >50k pax airport within 1500nm before starting L/H in the first place. Like that you got a solid income to make up for the possible loss of flying L/H. Especially when you're flying with giants like 777's and A340's.
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I have a related question that I do not think warrants another thread but are 4 engine long haul airliners completely uneconomical in AM? for instance what are idea routes for a 747-400
from FRA?
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I have a related question that I do not think warrants another thread but are 4 engine long haul airliners completely uneconomical in AM? for instance what are idea routes for a 747-400
from FRA?
747's are a no go in AM. Basically every long hauler larger than the A332 and 762ER is a no go.
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I have a related question that I do not think warrants another thread but are 4 engine long haul airliners completely uneconomical in AM? for instance what are idea routes for a 747-400
from FRA?
Well, almost all twin engine jets are profitable. The biggest you could get is the 777-300/ER. I tried a route, FRA-LAX, but it wasn't as profitable in a 747. I think the A340-300 is the only profitable 4 engine plane.
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I have a related question that I do not think warrants another thread but are 4 engine long haul airliners completely uneconomical in AM? for instance what are idea routes for a 747-400
from FRA?
Well, almost all twin engine jets are profitable. The biggest you could get is the 777-300/ER. I tried a route, FRA-LAX, but it wasn't as profitable in a 747. I think the A340-300 is the only profitable 4 engine plane.
Nope, the big ones are usually unprofitable.
In general, planes costing under €200 mio. are profitable, planes costing more are unprofitable.
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I have made money on long haul flights with the 747-300 but only at the .5 flights per day.
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I have made money on long haul flights with the 747-300 but only at the .5 flights per day.
Anyone can make money with a 747, but you will be hard pressed to earn the aircraft's value before you need to retire it. In this case, I wouldn't keep it for more than 1.5 years. Therefore you need to earn a daily profit of at least €700.000 :o ;)
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But then how much have you been paying in maintenance? The 747 (and any other 250+ planes) adds a lot to the maintenance, even more than the amount they earn.
But if you really want to have a 747, you can do it - if your other planes earn enough!
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But then how much have you been paying in maintenance? The 747 (and any other 250+ planes) adds a lot to the maintenance, even more than the amount they earn.
Yep, i didn't even include that factor. So you will need to make a DOC of over €1 mio on that particular plane. If not more...
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So the most profitable part of real world airlines doesn't work on AM? why is that?
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Well realistically longhaul is not always the more profitable in real life either. Large aircraft do truly have higher cost to run, it cost money to even load the fuel for the larger distances. The aircraft takes more to maintain in real life too. Long haul can make money in this game IF, you have the correct routes. You need to find a airport with many people going back and forth, and without other airlines taking up the market. Another thing that helps is for longhaul use smaller aircraft with large range like a 727 business jet. They still hold around 100 people but have a very large range, and are fast.
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So 747s and A380s are not really good in the game, I am about to make the jump to long haul and i am deciding whether to get A300s or 747s two successful aircraft in real life... I'll have to make new hubs lol and try and make it work lol
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Good luck, I wish that i was in a world with A380s, newest world i was in had 747s.