Airline Mogul Forum
Airline Mogul => Suggestions => [+] Suggestions => Topic started by: GoldDragonFly on September 29, 2009, 07:20:17 am
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I have been thinking about the Aircraft Market postings. Some airlines (not brokers, just normal airlines) purchase 50 aircraft and shifts it directly onto the market to sell at a profit. Now, I for one get kinda annoyed when there are 50 listings of the same aircraft of the same price listed and I am sure some other people do too, so here is my thought:
I have a suggestion to put a limit on amount of listings per airline. For instance, if one airline lists 50 aircraft (which has been happening in alot of the worlds) and its not a broker, it takes up loads of space on the market page and you sometimes end up having to page through pages of listings to view all the market listings. If a limit is set, say a max of 5 or 7 listings per airline, it will give all airlines the same amount of exposure on the market and its fair to everyone.
Maybe have a seperate part for broker listings, possibly have a drop-down menu where you select either the 'Public listings' or 'Broker listings'.
Anyone got any thoughts on this?
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The mass aircraft sales are useful when people want to get aircraft quickly. I don't think they are necessarily such a bad thing. Such a limit would also make mass aircraft retirement (for people with hundreds of aircraft) and unofficial brokerage difficult.
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I wouldn't be in favour of limiting the market in that way, I wouldn't mind adding in however a limited display of each aircraft sold by a single airline to lets say 5. So if airline X is selling A320s a max of 5 will be displayed at once.
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Yeah, I like that idea Stephen. It will just make viewing the listings so much easier. People tend to not page all the way to the last page if there are 100s of listings on the market.
I think having a max of 5 displayed will make navigation on the market page so much easier.
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I can understand your issue with having 100 of one aircraft on a page from the same airline, it doesn't really add anything at all. I was previously thinking of grouping the aircraft by price, but all the user needs to do then is change the price from plane to plane to get around it.
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That's why I thought that some form of drop-down menu will make it easier.... or as you mentioned before, displaying only a max of 5 listings per airline, excluding the brokers, if possible.
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You've also brought up only one situation.
Say I have the following B737s that I want to sell...
* Ten 8-year old planes for 50% value (dirt cheap)
* Ten 2-year-old planes for 90% value
* Ten brand new planes for 133% value (solely for profit)
Which 5 planes get listed? What if I'm trying to sell ten planes, each with a different age (in years)?
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I wouldn't be in favour of limiting the market in that way, I wouldn't mind adding in however a limited display of each aircraft sold by a single airline to lets say 5. So if airline X is selling A320s a max of 5 will be displayed at once.
What if somebody else wants to see the same aircraft type, and sees only 5 listed, yet really there are 50. Think that the 5 will be gone in a flash, one may put a larger price on.
To combat the problem, I know you said that one could just put 50 aircraft on at different prices. What if only X amount of "additions" to the market were permitted by each airline at one time. For instance say this allowance is five. I can have 50 737s all at the same price, but only 5 will show (yet it says more are available). Or I could have 50 737s, 10 A321s, 20 Hotters, 5 A330s and a Fokker 100 (only 5 of each would show, but would inform more are available). But no more, as there would then be more than 5 different editions. It would allow however, 1 A330 at 120%, one at 121%... 125%, and all would show. But it would be limited to those five aircraft, and no other aircraft of any type can be placed for sale.
I doubt many people sell more than 5 different models. Have you managed to follow my suggestion?
What about a search aircraft tool on the used/lease market. Not filter, but tool as in the search aircraft page?
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What if somebody else wants to see the same aircraft type, and sees only 5 listed, yet really there are 50. Think that the 5 will be gone in a flash, one may put a larger price on.
To combat the problem, I know you said that one could just put 50 aircraft on at different prices. What if only X amount of "additions" to the market were permitted by each airline at one time. For instance say this allowance is five. I can have 50 737s all at the same price, but only 5 will show (yet it says more are available). Or I could have 50 737s, 10 A321s, 20 Hotters, 5 A330s and a Fokker 100 (only 5 of each would show, but would inform more are available). But no more, as there would then be more than 5 different editions. It would allow however, 1 A330 at 120%, one at 121%... 125%, and all would show. But it would be limited to those five aircraft, and no other aircraft of any type can be placed for sale.
I doubt many people sell more than 5 different models. Have you managed to follow my suggestion?
What about a search aircraft tool on the used/lease market. Not filter, but tool as in the search aircraft page?
Mmmm...not really what I had in mind. With regards to the 5 listings - my idea was to set a limit of 5 total listings per airline at a time. Not 5 per type of aircraft. It will be up to you to decide which 5 aircrafts to list, even if you have 20 of one aircraft you want to sell. If 5 aircrafts are sold, you just add another 5 the next day.
I also suggested a different setting for brokers....either a drop down menu with 'Broker Listings' allowing for more than 5 listings, which will be seperate from the normal public market OR have the broker aircraft in the same public market, but maybe with a higher number of listings, say 10 or 15 at a time.
I just think having a normal airline listing 50 aircraft on the public market is unfair towards other airlines who want to list 1 or 2. If I see that on the public market and its not a broker, I just close it as I am not going to page through loads of pages to see what else is there, since all I can see is 50 Airbus aircraft, all at the same price.
That is why I had the original suggestion of a seperate broker market. If you want to look at what brokers have available, you know where to look where you can see 20/30/50 listings of one type of aircraft AND having max 5 listings by other airlines will just make it an easier and smoother process to view on the public market.
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But what if an airline is replacing a fleet of 50, it could take over a week to sell them due to when one can log on. It's not uncommon to see 20 or so used aircraft, but seeing 50, under 6monyhs old is annoying.
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As I have suggested before, simply force everyone to trade through broker would have solved this....
... oh wait... that wouldn't be favourable since it would limit the market ;)
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It seems to me that the problem here is people buying aircraft and reselling them new (not the real second hand aircraft). I would propose a different feature whereby people can broker aircraft in advance (maybe even giving the official brokers discounts...), and sell them in a separate market (on a separate page). The aircraft could then even be autolisted. Similar to the PFL system I suppose.
Each purchase order would be grouped when it appears on the market, with a column indicating how many are available in each gouping. Clicking on the Buy button would bring the user to a page where they could specify how many of the aircraft they wish to purchase.
On thinking about it, it may actually work if you had the grouped new aircraft together in the same market with the second hand ones and an option to sort between the advanced brokered aircraft and ones simply put up for sale.
This system could be applied to leasing (really just the existing PFL system combined with the idea of gouping the aircraft on Leasing Market page). It would be good for sellers, as they would have autolisted aircraft and for the buyers as they could by in bulk new aircraft. In terms of changes to the aircraft market page, the only thing would be a colum to indicte how many aircraft are available in a grouping. I think the most difficult part would be coding.
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But what if an airline is replacing a fleet of 50, it could take over a week to sell them due to when one can log on. It's not uncommon to see 20 or so used aircraft, but seeing 50, under 6monyhs old is annoying.
Even if you have a large number to sell with a max amount of 5 listings at a time, it will also slow down the speed of the game a bit, I think. Might be a good idea to have a column indicating the amount of this aircraft available, etc.
What could possibly solve the 50 listings under 6 months old problem, would be to have a time constraint on new aircraft, for instance if you purchase a new aircraft, you can not list it until its a minimum age of 6 months.... What do you think of that? It will immediately eliminate the large amount of new aircraft listings, plus no one is going to keep unused 50 aircraft and wait 6 game months to list it, so it will make people re-think their strategy first of all.
As I have suggested before, simply force everyone to trade through broker would have solved this....
... oh wait... that wouldn't be favourable since it would limit the market ;)
This could work, but if you look at the statistics of daily requests/purchases, would the brokers be able to 'service' all the airlines in the world, taking into consideration the delivery time, the financial aspect, etc.? Will this not create a possible delay in delivery times, if there are 100s of requests per day, especially in a public world?
It seems to me that the problem here is people buying aircraft and reselling them new (not the real second hand aircraft). I would propose a different feature whereby people can broker aircraft in advance (maybe even giving the official brokers discounts...), and sell them in a separate market (on a separate page). The aircraft could then even be autolisted. Similar to the PFL system I suppose.
Each purchase order would be grouped when it appears on the market, with a column indicating how many are available in each gouping. Clicking on the Buy button would bring the user to a page where they could specify how many of the aircraft they wish to purchase.
On thinking about it, it may actually work if you had the grouped new aircraft together in the same market with the second hand ones and an option to sort between the advanced brokered aircraft and ones simply put up for sale.
This system could be applied to leasing (really just the existing PFL system combined with the idea of gouping the aircraft on Leasing Market page). It would be good for sellers, as they would have autolisted aircraft and for the buyers as they could by in bulk new aircraft. In terms of changes to the aircraft market page, the only thing would be a colum to indicte how many aircraft are available in a grouping. I think the most difficult part would be coding.
Wow! It sounds a bit complicated but its got potential to work I think, however won't it just be easier to have a type of search page where you complete details what you're looking for to purchase, i.e. manufacturer, age limit, purchase price, etc. and when you click on search it will bring up all the listings within your search criteria?
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Similar to the PFL system I suppose.
Don't forget that the normal user cannot access PFL so may not know what it is. Also you seem to be implying that the difference between an official broker and a normal user would be removed in some parts.
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I don't think it is a good idea limit to only 5 or so aircraft. Large airlines will be able to sell many more than this per day without a limit. This will mainly serve to disadvantage small airlines, as they get more benefit out of cheap aircraft than the large seling airlines get.
The search function is a useful extra, but there needs to remain an ability to view all (which can be part of the search), so people can browse the planes available. This means there needs to be a way of limiin the number of planes there.
There probably would be some removal of differences between brokers if the idea were to be fully implemented. However, I think the system could be modified depending on what abilities one wants to give to normal users.
All this said, if one knows which aircraft are popular (and therefore clog up the market), they can just filter them out with the current filter tool.
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As I have suggested before, simply force everyone to trade through broker would have solved this....
... oh wait... that wouldn't be favourable since it would limit the market ;)
and give me more buisness....my brokerage is dead in all my worlds even with all the marketing I do in the world forums :roll:
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I would propose a different feature whereby people can broker aircraft in advance (maybe even giving the official brokers discounts...), and sell them in a separate market (on a separate page). The aircraft could then even be autolisted. Similar to the PFL system I suppose.
I still don't think that airlines should have aircraft brokering as their normal, ordinary operation. That, simply isn't a core business of an airline.
This could work, but if you look at the statistics of daily requests/purchases, would the brokers be able to 'service' all the airlines in the world, taking into consideration the delivery time, the financial aspect, etc.? Will this not create a possible delay in delivery times, if there are 100s of requests per day, especially in a public world?
I mean only for second hand trades. It is kind of like buying and selling stocks, where you would have to go through a stock broker. It has been rejected by Stephen numerous times anyway :P
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There was an interesting point made by which an airline may not sell before an aircraft is 6 months old. That would pretty much sort the problem in my eyes.
Also, a thought that just came to mind. People are buying aircraft (brokered) at -4%, and then selling them at say 115%, a 19% margin. For a broker to sell at the same price, it would only be a 15% margin as they don't get a discount on purchase for sale.
A purchase for sale option? Then brokers could fill (but limit it) the new (used under 6m) market. That would be their job right?
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I was also thinking that might work, purchase for sale for brokers, but it would further disadvantage worlds without brokers. This would create more work for brokers, but only in later stages of the game (you never see this reselling early in games), where brokers (it would seem) have little work to do anyway. It would be a good way of opening brokerage to more players (who won’t use the broker system as it is).
Although the 6 month limit on aircraft is a bit of an arbitrary number, it might work. Few people want to legitimately get rid of aircraft that new and the time and expenses of a 6 month wait would hopefully limit people reselling aircraft (as dktc pointed out – not the purpose of opening an airline).
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The thing is, normal airlines orders 50 of one aircraft and then dump it on the market with a high mark-up. This leads to having pages of one aircraft type listing, with one price which is so high that no purchases it. Its flooding the market and stays on there for ages. Having some form of restriction or limit will be beneficial for everyone if you think about it.
First of all, the market won't be flooded like that (Referring to normal airline flooding) allowing for every airline to place aircrafts on the market, i.e. having a fair chance of selling their aircraft AND secondly this will eliminate having an aircraft on there for days (real time) on end, which ages in the mean time and value drops. Having said this last bit, its just silly asking €160,000,000 for an aircraft with a value below €100,000,000 and 3.5+ years old. Reason being because its been on the market for so long and never been used.
I still think having a rule/restriction of not being able to sell aircraft under the age of 6 months or even 1 year would eliminate that. However, I think after the 6 months/1 year there might still be chances of flooding.... ???
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I buy 50-100 planes at a time to put on routes. Some days, I can put 50 on routes; other days, none. However, when I'm creating routes, I don't want to sort through 50-100 new aircraft when selecting the plane for the route.
My solution? Put all but 5-10 of each type on the market at 133%. I have suggested a "hangar" in the past where you can store planes for later use (and wouldn't show up in aircraft selection page). Until that suggestion is implemented, I am against any and all changes to the market.
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Mmmm they way I see it, there needs to be some form of limit:
1.) Limit on number of aircrafts purchased at a time
2.) Limit the aircraft market sales: such as suggested age limit, total aircraft on market, etc.
What is the point of purchasing an aircraft? To create a route and make money, right? Why purchase a 100 aircraft when you don't know if all 100 aircraft can be utilised? This is purely bad planning in my opinion.
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Limiting the number of aircraft one can purcase at a time won't work as people can place multiple orders. The idea of order books (see elsewhere in Suggestions), however, may solve this problem.
The reason many people purchase 100 or 50 aircraft at a time is that they don't know how many they can use in 24 or 48 hours, when they are built. Some people can put 50 aircraft on routes in a day. Once the aircraft are delivered, to avoid having them appear in a long list, clogging up the Create Route page, they put them on the market, and only remove them when it is time to put them on routes. The idea of a hangar would solve this problem. Perhaps it could be created by allowing people to make certain fleets ot show up on the Create Route page.
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I have suggested a "hangar" in the past where you can store planes for later use (and wouldn't show up in aircraft selection page).
I love the hangar or desert storage option until you're ready to put the a/c in service. I can't tell you how many times I wasn't paying attention and put an ATR instead of an Airbus on a route because they listed next to each other on my a/c selection.
You could also put in a 'storage' fee, which might make you think twice about putting in an order for 50+ a/c if you have to pay a premium to have them just sit around. It might also limit the amount of a/c being dumped on the market.
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Sounds like a good idea. Everything mentioned here will work to be honest - as long as it stops the aircraft market flooding. In one of the worlds I am playing in currently an airline dumped over 50 aircraft on the market, all at the same price. Its been on there for ages, flooding the market and aging, so no one wants to buy these aircraft at the 150 - 200% mark-up and they are all almost 3 years old. That is what is so annoying! This person is obviously way too thick to see that no one will buy these aircraft at that price. In the mean time, people don't even bother to look at the market as the first 4 pages are all the same so why bother looking at the rest?
Do a survey or poll and you will just see how many people agrees with me on this one....The point is, its ridiculous and unfair towards other airlines!
The way I see it we have the following suggestions to help combat this problem:
1.) Limit number of aircraft listings for airlines
2.) Set minimum age for aircraft to be listed (I think 1 year....)
3.) Set up a hangar/storage facility
4.) Channel all sales via brokers
As pointed out before, as an airline, the purpose of the business is not buy and sell planes all the time. An airline actually needs to provide a service, i.e. create routes and make money!!
What is your opinion?
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This person is obviously way too thick to see that no one will buy these aircraft at that price.
Or the person simply stopped playing...
Or the person can't be bothered scrapping all of the planes...
In the mean time, people don't even bother to look at the market as the first 4 pages are all the same so why bother looking at the rest?
Do you even use the filter?
As pointed out before, as an airline, the purpose of the business is not buy and sell planes all the time. An airline actually needs to provide a service, i.e. create routes and make money!!
Some airlines want to act like a broker. Let them.
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I have suggested a "hangar" in the past where you can store planes for later use (and wouldn't show up in aircraft selection page).
I love the hangar or desert storage option until you're ready to put the a/c in service. I can't tell you how many times I wasn't paying attention and put an ATR instead of an Airbus on a route because they listed next to each other on my a/c selection.
You could also put in a 'storage' fee, which might make you think twice about putting in an order for 50+ a/c if you have to pay a premium to have them just sit around. It might also limit the amount of a/c being dumped on the market.
i love storage as well. It has been mentioned before but has recently been popular. Hint hint ;)
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I think you should get a discount on maintenance if you put them in storage, as they are't doing any flying. It could be an option for airlines if they want to retire planes with the option of returning them to service later.
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I think you should get a discount on maintenance if you put them in storage, as they are't doing any flying. It could be an option for airlines if they want to retire planes with the option of returning them to service later.
Thats included in the new Mx formula. But not on the basis of storage, just simply not in use.
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I've just leafed through a 5 page list of Airbus A320-200s, 429 in total, all from the same airline, and the solution struck me. It's quite simple. The list needs to be altered so that airline's entry is one line, but 2 extra fields, one showing how many aircraft are offered and one with a + symbol to expand that entry. This could then list all the aircraft offered to enable the shopper to browse at leisure. If you're not interested in that aircraft type, there's no need to open the list.
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I've just leafed through a 5 page list of Airbus A320-200s, 429 in total, all from the same airline, and the solution struck me. It's quite simple. The list needs to be altered so that airline's entry is one line, but 2 extra fields, one showing how many aircraft are offered and one with a + symbol to expand that entry. This could then list all the aircraft offered to enable the shopper to browse at leisure. If you're not interested in that aircraft type, there's no need to open the list.
You can already filter out aircraft models by using the checkboxes on the right hand side of the page ;)
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Yeah, the filter doesn't work properly. If I check to filter out all but, say, BAe ATPs, I still get 4.5 pages of Airbus listings.
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Hmm... I'll try to ask Stephen about this. Thanks!
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There should be some updates for this feature coming this month, among others fixing this filtering error. Thanks for spotting it, sonofkernow!