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A Deep Philosophical Inquiry Into The Very Soul of AM

Chavaquiah

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Reply #15 on: April 03, 2008, 01:19:14 am
Quote from: "dktc"
Only under the circumstances where the airlines miscalculate their profits that they could make anything out of $1 routes. :wink:

Basically you are saying they should be hurting more. Simple fix would be increasing the pax charge and the cost of amenities per seated mile.

You, of all people, credit these airlines with the capacity to actually (mis)calculate something?! :lol:

OK, jests aside, what most players see is the route profit that is shown. As long as it's positive, all's well.

Yes, gates cost. That cost comes at the end (start, actually) of the month and goes largely unnoticed. Besides, there are slots free so, why bother?

Yes, airplanes cost, too. If not a lease than at least maintenance and the cost of opportunity. Ditto as for gates.

It may be sad (or actually quite funny) but most players don't realize how much they hurt themselves with poor decisions. But, since the game does not "punish" bad business practices...

So, yes, what I'm saying is that poor choices should hurt. Yes, Master, hurt us badly! (Better stop here, I know.)


AytchMan

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Reply #16 on: April 03, 2008, 01:20:52 am
1) A simple tax would make the game less, rather than more, realistic.

I've heard others say this and I simply don't understand the argument.  Surely the imposition of a crude approximation of the myriad taxes assessed in the real world is a modest step toward realism since the current situation is no tax whatsoever.  And, for what it's worth, I've never advocated this as a final result.

Meanwhile...I've engaged in a fair amount of discussion (here and elsewhere) about what the dreaded Easy Crowd wants and why they want it.  Interestingly, I've never actually heard one of them come out and say "We want an easy game in which we make a billion euros overnight".    Are we certain that this is the case?  One can certainly infer this from some of the aforementioned squawking (I have) but has this been directly stated?
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dktc

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Reply #17 on: April 03, 2008, 01:28:01 am
Quote from: "mg35pt"
You, of all people, credit these airlines with the capacity to actually (mis)calculate something?! :lol:


My bad for forgeting the other possibility :lol:

Quote
Yes, Master, hurt us badly! (Better stop here, I know.)

...or someone might get jealous :P  :lol:  (I am not going to say who that someone is.... or this would not be here next time I check :P )

Quote from: "AytchMan"
I've engaged in a fair amount of discussion (here and elsewhere) about what the dreaded Easy Crowd wants and why they want it. Interestingly, I've never actually heard one of them come out and say "We want an easy game in which we make a billion euros overnight". Are we certain that this is the case? One can certainly infer this from some of the aforementioned squawking but has this been directly stated?


If you count the posts and the emails to support about this being a hard game, and that they can't make money, and that they are going bankrupt and need reset, and that they want to know how they could make money..... etc.etc.etc. (<- yes, the repetitiveness is annoying I know)....
... Let's just say that at the current level of difficulty, there are a %age of players who find this game difficult, and if we increase the difficulty, we risk losing these players.
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AytchMan

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Reply #18 on: April 03, 2008, 02:00:00 am
Well, you certainly ought to know.  Which leads me into the deeply philosophical portion of our program, parsing your answer rather finely.  I'm thinking maybe it's not that they find the game so difficult, it's that they don't find instant success (which is not the same thing).  Which further leads me to wonder if they are, in fact, your desired audience.  Simply put (as an impertinent, rhetorical question):  is it more important for AM to win eyeballs or hearts and minds?  I mean no offense.  I understand the economics of online projects and only pose the question to, if anyone, the non-official reader.
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dktc

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Reply #19 on: April 03, 2008, 02:31:13 am
I saw the original post you posted (which you then deleted and repost the new one), which I think reflects your mentality and the implications of your current post. In that post, you ask about when AM is easy and when players get billions easily, what is the point of playing more than one round.

To answer that question, honestly, there is no reason. This is not the official stance, but just my own opinion. I have reflected this issue to Stephen and Air Elbonia before. There is simply no motivation for players to stay and continue playing. However, realistically, people will always leave the game, regardless of the level of difficulty. Another issue is that frustrating, slow-paced games also turn away players. Players could get bored and leave in the middle of a game, or they could perceive that the game is too hard or that it takes forever to get anywhere near success, and they could give up. There is no valid, one-for-all fix for that issue.

Back to your current post, this is a game. Obviously, we are not going cater this game towards professional airline managers. What is the point for them to play? The issue with creating a sophisticated economic/business simulation is that the target market is very narrow and limited. Personally, do I want to deal with all the immature brats that keep violating the game rules and complain that they get what they deserve? Do I want to constantly explain to under-educated players what the terms in the game mean and how the game works? Even when you consider the economical sense, college educated professionals from mid-20's to middle age are definitely more financially viable and more willing to help and provide us with funding than some 13 yo kids living off their parents. However, realistically, it is hard to target that market. They have more choices and AM's operation advantage at the moment is that AM is free. This sole factor has pretty much defined our target audiences from a marketing view point.

I guess what I am getting at is that the popularity or the financial aspects are not the real considerations behind this game. It is more about enjoyment and potentially educational purposes. Relative competitiveness is also an issue, as in if no one is going to play AM, the game would not exist. Therefore... Should we limit our target audiences to only a certain prestiged group of people and rule out others? Should we use a complicated system to indirectly get rid of the large number of players we could possibly inspire? Is AM even close to the sophistication needed to switch the target market? These are some questions for thoughts.

One thing I am certain though, is that one could disagree with the vision of the game owner, but one should not question those vision or try to change them. Voice your opinions as you will, but at the end of the day, visions and moral beliefs are not things that could be compromised and agreed upon.
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AytchMan

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Reply #20 on: April 03, 2008, 04:03:16 am
Yeah, I scrapped my first attempt when I saw that it didn't really address what you were saying.

On your current post, there's not much I can add.  I see a lot of potential for AM and I think, with MW imminent and the (possible) addition of variable difficulty, there's the potential for all of the demographic slices to find a comfortable spot.  For me personally, as one of those strategically-retentive types, I enjoy the game very much even though I grit my teeth occasionally at some of its limitations.
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Air Elbonia

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Reply #21 on: April 03, 2008, 04:25:39 am
Variable difficulty is something on the table... the good and bad of multiworlds is that it opens vast amounts of possibilities otherwise unavailable. The good is, this means potential for a game more tailored to individual players of many or all spectrums, the bad is, there's a thousand little things i want to code, and have done yesterday, but time is always a limiting factor.

Eventually, it is my plan to implement variable difficulty on a world-wide setting.  players wanting an easier game can go for the easier difficulty world(s), those wanting harder games go for the harder difficulty world(s).  this will not initially be available, and may not initially be top priority.
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quatzalcoatl

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Reply #22 on: April 03, 2008, 08:39:23 am
Just to give my two cents to the discussion:

I don't think the game is too easy, but rather it don't change.
Once you found out how the game works and have developed a strategy, you can just keep on doing it and improve it slightly and you'll almost certainly make loads of money. What is missing are parameters that change like fuel pricing (i know it does, but only slightly) and stuff. I could even imagine inflation and the odd random hyperinflation (just a thought) so that peolpe have to develop new stratgies from tome to time.

Well, thats just my two cents.

quatz
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Argonith

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Reply #23 on: April 03, 2008, 09:16:40 am
Quote from: "quatzalcoatl"
Just to give my two cents to the discussion:

I don't think the game is too easy, but rather it don't change.
Once you found out how the game works and have developed a strategy, you can just keep on doing it and improve it slightly and you'll almost certainly make loads of money. What is missing are parameters that change like fuel pricing (i know it does, but only slightly) and stuff. I could even imagine inflation and the odd random hyperinflation (just a thought) so that peolpe have to develop new stratgies from tome to time.

Well, thats just my two cents.

quatz


I agree. It's simulation complexity that's lacking. I'm perfectly fine with the front end, and I personally feel we don't need to explicitly set three classes of prices, for instance. However, I think if we were to add high fuel price variability, booms/depressions in certain cities/regions, regional effects (i.e. if there are a lot of JFK-LAX routes priced at 150 but no EWR-LAX route, you shouldn't be able to charge 700 flying a EWR-LAX route). Also, I feel the current available passenger formula is not very realistic. For instance, last round I saw 3 airlines flying B757 from Chicago to Anakuluk (sp?), a village in Alaska everyday. In real life, would that ever happen? Of course not! So how is it possible that in the game these people are charging 900 euros for the privilege of Windy City residents to take a vacation in Anakuluk?

My suggestion to add some variety in strategy would be twofold (and in these suggestions I try as much to make it a back-end change rather than add complexity for the user):
1) Make a 'cost-focused' strategy more viable.
This means that fuel costs/staff costs have to increase significantly so that in certain times of fluctuations (when fuel prices go sky-high), only those with the best cost controls will be able to make decent profits. To this end:
  i) Perhaps the maintenance formula should be tweaked so that it takes into account the variety of aircraft one buys, and the different types of engine one flies. Southwest Airlines was the first to insist on having one common airplane across the fleet, and that's one of the reasons they have been able to keep maintenance costs down.
  ii) Perhaps make airplane costs fluctuate according to market demand rather than based on research (which honestly isn't that accurate anyway, since then the plane costs should rise every game year due to inflation). Certainly start with the researched numbers, but then make them start to slowly drift upward or downward depending on market demand. This will then create the dual strategy of - 'always trying to take advantage of buying the cheap planes' vs 'trying to have fleet homogeneity and lower maintenance costs'

2) Create a trade-off between 'hub' and 'point-to-point' strategies.
This would involve lifting the restriction on only being able to fly departures out of one of your bases. I think what one should do is allow people to fly out of any airport they can get a gate at, but make passenger demand much lower than if they were flying out of a hub (so magnify the effects of the hub transit effect). This way, some airlines could set up, say, a Northern Canada/Russia network of little Cessnas without having to open 6 bases at pipsqueak airports, and still profit greatly from the small cities traffic, while other airlines could run the major routes with the hub-and-spoke system and focus more on focus leadership to win price wars.
And to facilitate the viability of a 'Northern' airline or some airline operating only in harsh conditions (Sahara maybe?), perhaps add a (and yes, this will be terribly annoying) 'harshness' index to airports from 0-100, and this index will be how much more that can be charged flying to that airport in a formula like this:
(1+[airport 1's harshness]%)*(1+[airport 2's harshness]%)*normal price charged.
I'm assuming most airports would get a 0 harshness index, since there's really not any difficulty flying to that area, but if, say, you're flying from Juneau to the aforementioned Anakuluk, you might get 1.2*1.99*normal price which will really kick it up for that northern airline.

Anyway, I'm not expecting all (or even any) of that to be implemented right away, but I hope there are at least some fresh ideas in my post, and that it'll be kept by the developers and perhaps considered at some point in the future when complexity is added.

I'd just add a note of caution with complexity - try to add it in the back-end, as I've already stressed - I've seen many great browser-based games die because the 'old-guard' got bored with the game and demanded change/complexity, which the developers acquiesced to, but then the complexity killed the flow of new users because the learning curve became too steep.
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scottj63

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Reply #24 on: April 03, 2008, 08:35:13 pm
i honestly think that like in any multiplayer online game you have your ignorant griefers that (in our case here) will do what they can to ruin others experience with the 1$ routes and the 10 frequency crap. And I really dont think there is anything you can do about it.

I didnt get to see my final balance of the round but I was happy with the way things went for my first round ever. I want to thank all the folks that gave me good advice and helped me NOT make mistakes like multi frequencies.

scott in the philippines on a longggggggggggg vacation


VirginCanada

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Reply #25 on: April 03, 2008, 09:11:23 pm
There has been a ton of information put forth here composed of ideas, possibilities and wants, but please keep in mind what we have. AM kicks serious butt. There are thousands of players from all over the world managing their airlines and having a great time doing it. Sure there will be improvements and that is part of the maturation of the game.
I really just want to give props out to Stephen and all the staff for developing such a great game and putting forth such a strong commitment to the AM community. Here here! :P

P.S. my two cents would be to have varying difficulties in different time periods, i.e.This round 70's easy, 80's moderate and 2000's hard or something along those lines with every reset the difficulties change to different decades. Secondly I would have to vote in favour of a sliding tax. 0% when starting out %10 at a dop of $10mil, %20 at $20mil and so on an so forth.


Steeler83

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Reply #26 on: April 04, 2008, 02:43:39 am
Quote from: "VirginCanada"
There has been a ton of information put forth here composed of ideas, possibilities and wants, but please keep in mind what we have. AM kicks serious butt. There are thousands of players from all over the world managing their airlines and having a great time doing it. Sure there will be improvements and that is part of the maturation of the game.
I really just want to give props out to Stephen and all the staff for developing such a great game and putting forth such a strong commitment to the AM community. Here here! :P

P.S. my two cents would be to have varying difficulties in different time periods, i.e.This round 70's easy, 80's moderate and 2000's hard or something along those lines with every reset the difficulties change to different decades. Secondly I would have to vote in favour of a sliding tax. 0% when starting out %10 at a dop of $10mil, %20 at $20mil and so on an so forth.

Now I like that idea, both of difficulty and of a sliding tax.  So let's say that one round, the 1970s are easy, then the next round they get progressively more difficult?  Intriguing...
teeler83
Founder and CEO of Buon Giorno! Airlines


travismb99

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Reply #27 on: April 04, 2008, 08:09:42 am
The problem with multiple fares in AM as a "difficulty" strategy is that it really doesn't increase the actual difficulty of the game - all it does is increase the tedium of the game.

Having to set two or three fares per route isn't any harder and doesn't require any more thinking than setting one fare - it just means you have to click around to find the right fare three or four times as much as you used to.

That's not any more "fun" or "challenging" than it is now. It's just more mindless make-work clicking, and drives the game further in the direction of "who has the most time to spend clicking buttons" rather than "who can put together the right strategy?"

What *would be* more challenging about multi-class seating is developing the right fleet mix with the right balance of premium cabin seating - you might run an 8F/112Y bird from LAX to LAS and a 16F/80Y bird from LAX to SFO.

There needs to be a bigger penalty in AM for wrong-sizing aircraft. Putting a 737-sized aircraft on a route like ATL-MCN should be met with instant massive epic fail from a profitability standpoint, instead of the mere "diminishing returns" you get now.
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yourefired

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Reply #28 on: April 04, 2008, 08:14:11 am
Quote from: "travismb99"
The problem with multiple fares in AM as a "difficulty" strategy is that it really doesn't increase the actual difficulty of the game - all it does is increase the tedium of the game.

Having to set two or three fares per route isn't any harder and doesn't require any more thinking than setting one fare - it just means you have to click around to find the right fare three or four times as much as you used to.

That's not any more "fun" or "challenging" than it is now. It's just more mindless make-work clicking, and drives the game further in the direction of "who has the most time to spend clicking buttons" rather than "who can put together the right strategy?"

What *would be* more challenging about multi-class seating is developing the right fleet mix with the right balance of premium cabin seating - you might run an 8F/112Y bird from LAX to LAS and a 16F/80Y bird from LAX to SFO.

There needs to be a bigger penalty in AM for wrong-sizing aircraft. Putting a 737-sized aircraft on a route like ATL-MCN should be met with instant massive epic fail from a profitability standpoint, instead of the mere "diminishing returns" you get now.


I completely agree. I think the game should go in a more strategic direction involving accounting, finance (allow the use of leverage later on), marketing, advertising, branding, product development, product differentiation, etc. As much as I want AM to be a hobby rather than consuming my life (though I just spent the last 4 hours on the computer designing a color scheme for my fleet), I'd like an opportunity to differentiate more.

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Chavaquiah

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Reply #29 on: April 04, 2008, 08:33:15 am
Quote from: "travismb99"
The problem with multiple fares in AM as a "difficulty" strategy is that it really doesn't increase the actual difficulty of the game - all it does is increase the tedium of the game.

[...]

There needs to be a bigger penalty in AM for wrong-sizing aircraft.

Hear! Hear!

I've seen the multiple-fare-as-competition-avoidance-system argument but can't quite understand how on Earth that would achieve anything other than driving AM in the direction of an arcade shoot-em-up (or click-em-down) game.


 

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